Fisher X-1000 restore hold my hand

Discussion in 'Fisher' started by Kingbleu, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    I just picked up a Fisher X-1000 at a garage sale. The unit powers up and plays but gets extremely hot I mean smoking hot. It doesnt seem to be red plating but I could roast a turkey on it. I tried to adjust the tube output bias adjustment per the manual but the lowest I can adjust is 1.42v for V11 and 1.16v for V13.

    I was thinking about buying this restore kit http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fisher-X-10...880402?hash=item280a436392:g:WWYAAOSwYHxWIWLx

    I dont mind ordering the parts myself from digi key or mouser but some of the capacitor values arent available and I'm not sure what values could be subsituted. There are so many brands to choose from I get lost on those websites. Ive been reading up on all you guys doing restorations and my head is spinning (orange drop caps to replace film caps) ect....

    If anyone has time to help me with a parts list or tell me what you think about the one on ebay I would much appreciate it. Thank you
     
  2. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    King -- There is a good chance that the bias problem can be traced to leaking output stage coupling caps, or bad bias supply caps, or both. The bias supply uses a selenium rectifier all unto itself. But in this case, that is most likely not your problem because the rectifier passes so little current. That translates to no internal heat buildup, and therefore, no deterioration. No doubt you will change the rectifier out for good measure anyway. However, in this case DO NOT add any series resistance to compensate for the new silicon unit, as with so little current flow, the old selenium unit was just as efficient as the new silicon unit will be in this case. Therefore, if you do change out the rectifier, it should be swapped out without any adjustment.

    The Resto-pack kit is a product of The Fisher Doctor, who has a very checkered past that you might want to investigate just so you are aware. I have not used any of his kits, although I have purchased some small items and a manual or two over the years from him without incident. It is my understanding that his kits primarily focuses on coupling and low voltage electrolytic caps, but do not address the main power supply electrolytic caps. They may be a great way to cover much of what you need. But I would make sure you are aware of what all his kit does, and does not include.

    If need be, appropriate power supply can caps are available through Antique Electronic Supply, or can be custom manufactured from Hayseed Hamfest.

    There is no shortage of great folks here who can help you through any concerns you have with your project. Good luck with it!

    Dave
     
  3. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    If you want to go with a "kit", contact Jim McShane. Tell him what you have and ask him if it's possible for him to build a kit for you. Jim's worse parts are about 10 orders of magnitude better than FISHERDOC's generic base model parts. Putting it another way, you wouldn't want Chevette parts in a 396SS Chevelle even if they do fit. If you want to stay true to the original style can caps on the top, you have 2-3 options. 1.) gut and restuff it, 2.) disconnect and install individual caps underneath, or use a combination of CE Manufaturing generic caps with extra caps underneath to fill out the missing sections. 3.) Get custom can's from Hayseed Hamfest.
    Nichicon manufactures pencil type caps that are tall and narrow. Ideal for stuffing cans.

    The only thing I don't care for is how Jim McShane stacks main filter caps on the top of the unit. They are stacked using clamps , and the leads are exposed to fingers. Fingers and H.V. don't mix. I'd rather get can's. So if you opt for a kit from Jim explain you'll get the can's elsewhere. You may r may not like how the Hayseed can's look. They are not identical in looks to the originals. But they DO exceed all original spec's for the can caps, including temps (105*C). See below for a pic of Hayseed can caps on an 800-C or 400.

    100_3983.JPG

    Back in the early 70's the numbering standard for cap values changed somewhat due to manufacturing efficiency (smaller overall size) and the shift over to aluminum electrolytics vs. Wax and paper caps. Instead of the old 10-20-30-40-50, etc uF caps, you'd now have 8-22,27,33,39,47,56,68,82,100 etc. uF caps.

    Tolerance values changed to a straight +/-20% as the normal standard, with 10%, 5%, and 1% values available. Old Tolerances could be as high as +90% / -50% with the majority being +50% / - 20%.

    Getting a new cap that will fit in the unit calls for a couple things. Physical size limits, type of cap(mica, film, lytic, tantalum), value and voltage(DC and or AC). Generally the voltages you are looking for are DC Voltages. Most of the caps are going to be either sub 1uf ceramics, mylar film, paper in oil, or styrene. Styrene's usually leave alone. They are extremely sensitive to heat and require extra steps to minimize heat propagation to the cap. FISHER used a very high quality ceramic in their gear. Best to leave them alone in this case unless they are blown apart. Paper in oils are generally good caps, but in the FISHER's of that era the German PIO's didn't hold up well. replace them. Mylars (ERO-FOL II) tend to be ok. I'd check for leakage and replace as necessary. (replace it's mirror cap). Tantalums IMO shouldn't be in an audio unit. I'd replace with a film cap and be done with it.

    As for replacing values. Here's an example.
    .5uf ---> .47
    .05uf---->.047
    .005uf-----> .0047uf
    Other values will work out basically the same

    Try not to go down or less on value. One exception I know of is 40uf. a 39uf cap is ok here. As long as it's within the +/- 20% tolerance it's ok, but going up in value is preferred to going down. 47uf is readily available. 39uf not so much.

    CAP VOLTAGE. NEVER GO DOWN IN VOLTAGE. Either stay the same or go up. It won't hurt to go up a reasonable amount, Going from 400V to 630V is ok. Going from 250v to 630v cap is too much IMO. Change in Size for one. The other has to do with reforming or voltage capacity of a large voltage cap used in a low voltage situation.

    Any Electrolytic of today is quieter than the best of the 1960's caps. You don't need to worry about low esr (power factor), as it's way lower in todays general caps than yesteryears best caps.

    Electrolytics to look for are these series for general overhaul work in audio gear.
    NICHICON Brand
    UPW Series .......> Power supplies
    UHE Series.......> Power supplies
    UKL Series.......> Signal path
    The above are all radial (both leads on one end)
    TVX series.......> Any position an AXIAL is needed.

    PANASONIC Brand (I use Nichicons so I'm not as versed in the Pannie's)
    FC Series .........> Roughly equivalent to UPW / UHE series

    FILM Caps.
    Space limitations .........Cornell Dublier "DME" series
    General work................Sprague ""ORANGE DROPS"
    ...."..."........"..................Any of the Illinois Brand Axials
    Coupling caps..............Any of the above, plus "Boutique" caps,
    ......."..........".................plus good not leaking ERO-FOL II's, Russian K-42's, etc.

    There are too many brands, types to list. I would start out and build a basic restoration with good general caps to establish a sound baseline. Then roll caps. Yeah it can get expensive. Some peple fill a unit with one type or brand of cap in all the coupling positions, which can impart a certain tonal quality to the unit based on the cap used. You don't want this. So mix them up. But when you mix them up, use the same cap on the same position LEFT AND RIGHT.

    Antique Electronic supply (www.tubesandmore.com) has the Illinois axial at a decent price. The Cornell Dublier DME is a very good cap, IMO it's as good as or better than a Orange Drop. Plus it's smaller and less expensive than the O.D. (easier to get into those tight spaces.)

    This should get you started. Like Dave said, there are a lot of knowledgable guys here. And more than a few should have X-1000's.

    Larry
     
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  4. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply I really appreciate the time you take out of your day to help others like me.

    So my question is where are the output stage coupling caps located?
    How many are there?
    Would you be able to identify them in the service manual?

    The service manual I'm using is for the later model X-1000 the one with the head phone jacks. My unit is the older version without headphoe jacks would this make a difference?
     
  5. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    So much info thanks so much

    I talked to Don today he has been working under Jim for the past 5 years. He checked if Jim had any kits and couldnt find any because the X-1000 is such a rare unit. Jim did offer to restore my unit if I decide to go that route and his turn around time is only 30 days. Pretty good considering the horror stories I have heard about people waiting years to get their gear back.
     
  6. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    On the schematic for the latter version (dual headphone jacks on the front), the output stage coupling caps are identified as C47, C48, C49, and C50. They are .1 uF caps and should be rated for 630 vdc. The bias supply caps are C59, C60, and C64. They are all 50 uF electrolytic caps, and should be rated for 63 vdc or more.

    Please note that on this schematic, the polarity of C59 and C60 is shown reversed from what it should be.

    Dave
     
  7. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    Let me start off by saying I think you must be some kind of savant. Catching the reverse polarity error on the service manual wow....
    I went down to office depot with the schematics on a thumb drive and had them print me out a giant blown up copy that I can now read :). I spent the rest of the day looking back and forth from schemmatics to amp tracking down the output stage coupling caps and the bias supply caps. Now I know where they are and will look around for some replacements. Do I understand you correctly that the original values are

    original values
    C47 .1uf, 400v
    C48 .1uf, 250v
    C49 .1uf, 400v
    C50 .1uf,250V
    and you recommend the replacments be 630 vdc

    original values

    C59 50uf, 70v
    C60 50uf, 70v
    C64 50uf, 70v
    you reccomend these replacements at 63 vdc or more
     
  8. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    You understand correctly. Back in the day, the physical size of components was a particular concern, so the lowest possible voltage rating was used to keep size down. Today, higher voltage rated components are readily available that are also smaller in size than those of yesteryear that are rated for less voltage. Therefore, it just makes sense to use the higher rated components since they'll fit. In the bias supply, even 100 volt caps can be used, and would offer greater protection as well.

    Dave
     
  9. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    With your help I would like to create a parts list. This is what I have so far.

    Coupling Capacitors
    C47: .1uf, 400v -- DME6P1K-F 1uf, 630 vdc
    C48: .1uf, 250v -- DME6P1K-F 1uf, 630 vdc
    C49: .1uf, 400v -- DME6P1K-F 1uf, 630 vdc
    C50: .1uf,250V -- DME6P1K-F 1uf, 630 vdc

    Bias supply Capacitors
    C59 50uf, 70v -- TVA1343-E3 50uf, 100v
    C60 50uf, 70v -- TVA1343-E3 50uf, 100v
    C64 50uf, 70v -- TVA1343-E3 50uf, 100v

    As for the remaining electrolytic and mylar capacitors should I keep the values as close to original as possible?
     
  10. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    Yes. You don't have to try for the exact values, as they will be hard to find in a lot of cases. But DO try and stay within 20% of the original.

    FOR EXAMPLE;
    C59, C60, C64 can be 47uf as it falls in the + or - 20% tolerance. Easier to find and usually cheaper than the original value.

    20uf can be a 22uf , 25uf.
    30uf can be 33uf
    40uf can be either 39uf or 47uf. Recommend 47uf tho. Try to never go DOWN in value. 40 to 39uf is one of the very few exceptions tho.
    56uf go up to 68uf.
    etc.,etc.,etc.
    Also see notes in post #3.

    And ALWAYS go UP in VOLTAGE!
    Some will have W.V. after the voltage. This means Working voltage, or the nominal circuit voltage it can handle. S.V. stands for SURGE VOLTAGE. This is the voltage upon starting up that the cap can safely handle, while everything is settling down and loading up the system. This surge voltage is normal. If it has W.V. and S.V.. on it and you go up to a working voltage that equals the Surge voltage, you'll be ok. For Example. The cap says 47uf 350W.V. and 400S.V. and you replace it with a 47uf 400V W.V. The Surge Voltage it can handle is approx 50-75V higher. It will be able to handle the voltages put out by the unit better, and run somewhat cooler, having a little more heat resistance.

    You can use radial caps in lieu of axial caps. Just add some lead length (insulate the lead). More readily available, more selection, and cheaper,
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  11. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    Yes. With the available power of the EL34 based X-1000, Fisher did not skimp on any of the coupling capacitor values anywhere in the unit, because they didn't need to. Even the cap values in the phono preamps are ample. Smaller units often included a variety of permanent LF filters (besides any switchable LF filter switches they employed) that were included to help prevent the power amplifier sections from becoming saturated due to record warp or console installation considerations. But with the amount of power available in this unit, the design only includes one simple garbage filter, which in itself still allows for a flat response down to 20 Hz. Therefore, keep the coupling caps as close to the original values as possible.

    The X-1000 also employs Fisher's premium approach to B+ distribution, using a what amounts to a dual system, one for each channel. As a result, there are a LOT of power supply caps in this unit. Therefore, for a neat job of things, you will definitely want to pursue some approach to replacing the existing can caps, rather than trying to stuff the underside with discrete caps for that purpose. Restoring an X-1000 is a major project, but one that is well worth the time in the end!

    Dave
     
  12. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    Still working on the parts list, it keeps changing so I will wait awhile before I post it. I have been in contact with Hayseed and am going to have them build the can capacitors for me. I am a bit concerned about how to properly line up the new cans during install but I will cross that bridge when I get there. Is there anything else I should do beside replace all the capacitors and the rectifier. Any other parts I need to get before I put in my order. What kind of rectifer would you guys suggest.
     
  13. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    I would strongly suggest doing some slight modification work in the output stage area, that will include adding separate cathode sampling resistors, and Screen Stability resistors to each tube. It will add significant protection to your output tubes, and simplify the adjustment of your DC bias and balance controls. We can talk you through that work, but for your parts list, you would include four 10 ohm .5 watt metal film resistors, and four 100 ohm .25 watt metal or carbon film resistors.

    You also might find these two threads helpful for general reference with your work:

    http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/fisher-x-1000-integrated-welcome.306741/

    http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/the-fisher-x-1000-and-efb.544769/

    Examine the phono preamp area closely, as doing a proper job of replacing the coupling caps in that section is not for the faint of heart -- nor in the X-202 series or stereo preamp series of Fisher's lineup either for that matter.

    Space is a premium in Fisher integrateds. Therefore, I would caution you against using large premium audio caps, that will be like trying to put 6 gals in a 5 gal bucket. Using quality components of typical physical size will usually yield the best results. Besides the potential shorts that overly large components can produce, they also can cause unintended collateral damage in the form of interaction with other components that otherwise would not/did not occur.

    Also, strongly consider adding a CL-60 current limiter to help protect the power switch. Fisher power switches are known to have finite lives, and particularly the ones in those pieces employing SS rectification.

    You can replace the original silicon rectifiers if you wish, but failure of the original components are extremely rare. Most folks replace them with 1000 PIV 3A units -- but only for neurotic peace of mind. Those who are really persnickety will use the ultra fast version of these diodes :)

    Dave
     
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  14. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    Dave if the phono section is where I think it is I will be lucky to fit my soldering iron in there at all:( Following up with Hayseed they said

    Fisher's can-capacitors don't always follow the industry standard for the order of their terminals. The *terminal symbol" order (clockwise from below) will be half-circle - square - triangle - blank), however they don't necessarily correspond with the "A-B-C-D" in the Fisher manual. What I would like for you to do is take a look at the 40-20-40-20 can capacitor and the 30-60 uF. On the side of each, there should be a table of the *symbols* that shows what capacitance and voltage goes to which terminal.:

    I checked the 30-60 uf can and sure enough it does not correspond to the schematics. The 40-20-40-20 can capacitor cannot be read as it sits inside some sort of clamp device. I must delsolder that bad boy. I took out my solder iron and the damn thing wouldn't even melt the solder. I'm gonna put a new tip on it and try again if that doesn't work looks like I will be purchasing a Hakko Fx888.

    Pics are coming next.
     
  15. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    As I mentioned earlier, restoring an X-1000 is a major project! As you get into it, you will see the depth of how big the project is. Take your time to sort out the details as they come along, ask any and all questions you are not sure of, do neat work, and you will be richly rewarded in the end!

    Dave
     
  16. audiodon

    audiodon AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    The X-1000 restoration is not for first-timers. It got away from me, and I had years of experience.
    Dave had to bail me out. He's often swamped now though.
     
  17. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    What is it exactly, that got away from you. Was it the point to point wiring, working in a crammed space, the search for hard to find replacment parts, working with a schematic that is from a latter model,:). But seriously is swapping out capacitors/components in a Fisher X-1000 really that much different than any other piece of equipment.
     
  18. Kingbleu

    Kingbleu Active Member

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    It has began, I have offically started the restoration. So far everything is going good. Of course I did not triple check my parts order and was short one cap. Also C25 and C26 (bfc236845105) have the shortest leads known to man and will not be used in this project.

    I started with the some of the more accessible components. A lot of times the capacitor will be connected to two or three resistors. It is a constant game of cat and mouse. To change out one cap sometimes I end up replacing four resistors as one resistor leads to another and on and on. Ive been talking a lot of pics and drawing out the circuit before I unsolder anything. I don't have a photographic memory and always have to go back to my drawings for reference.

    Quick question is it ok to replace C3,4,29,30,52,53,54,55 .022uf 250v with .022uf 250vdc
    This will be the next section and I just want to make sure before I continue.
     
  19. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    Yes to the .022uf/250v caps. Unless it specifically says 250VAC on it, the caps are DC rated for that voltage. a 250VDC cap, if it has an AC rating, is usually AC RATED for 600VAC.

    As for removing the CAN CAPS, I use 2 25 to 45W irons at the same time to heat the solder up to it's liquid state, then remove one, and quickly suck it up with a solder sucker. It usually stays liquid while swapping out the one iron for the sucker. Or if you can grab an extra hand to use the solder sucker, (promise her a nice dinner or a new pair of shoes) that also works well. A Hakko will probably have the same problem with heating up the chassis joints as a regular iron.

    Try to visualize before hand the part that needs to come out and the surrounding parts that connect to the same point. Get a couple of small flat jewelers screwdrivers to pry the soldered lead from the terminal strip lug after removing the solder. You'll still need to keep heat on it while unwrapping the lead. When you re-install it, you won't need to wrap it 2-3 times around the terminal. 1 time around a bend and crimp, then solder it. I've seen as much as 2-3 inches of leftover lead on some terminals from the factory. Makes for a lousy joint, hard to heat all the way thru and get a good joint thruout, and looks like crap when it's all done.
     
  20. audiodon

    audiodon AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Kingbleu,
    This unit predates Fisher's drive to simplify.
    The date stamp on my X-1000 was November 28,1961.
    That also happens to be the month the Milroy, PA Fisher plant opened, though this is probably a Long Island City unit. Mine is an early brass faceplate model.
    A lot was changing at that time within Fisher.
    A lot was changing for me too. I was comfortable working on Fisher gear and had a bit of a reputation as a reliable tech at the time, but this unit, being the jamming together of two different pieces of gear, had some unique complexity challenges and ground plane issues, plus it was my first EL-34 piece.
    It might also be that the first unrecognized signs of ALS were affecting my ability to focus on complex circuitry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015

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