Food For Thought

[LPD]

I had posted on the Lansing Forum a question regarding the poor response Altec/JBL speakers have in the audiophile community. Here is one response I found amusing and enlightning...

Yeah, I agree with XXX - although I think a lot of it comes down to fashion. Fashion dictated by compromise. All speaker engineering is compromise that's been fairly well understood for awhile. Something along these lines:

It is possible to get a flat 30hz from a 6" driver if you don't mind a limited output level.

Extended bass can come from a small mini monitor if you don't care about efficiency or power compression.

Full range drivers are possible, just don't move your head.

You can make a speaker with a 360 degree sound field, too bad all instruments don't produce sound that way.

You can make a speaker flat on axis, too bad all instruments don't produce sound that way.

Speakers can bounce sound off your walls like in a concert hall, which will only sound real if you're room is a concert hall.

A speaker can sound like it has more bass than it does if you bump it up a bit before you roll it off.

A speaker can sound real detailed if you let the tweeter resonate in the top octave.

A speaker with no bass can sound balanced if you roll off the highs.

A speaker can sound extended at both ends if you suck out the midrange.

A speaker can have a lot of presence if you concentrate the midrange power response in a limited forward direction.

etc.....

All companies make these decisions. When I grew up we called it the East Coast sound or West Coast sound or English sound or whatever someone feels is marketable. Don't fool yourself into thinking any speaker is perfect. The wavefront and propagation pattern of all the instruments playing in a group is too complex to nail with one speaker. Best you can hope for is too hear what the producer heard when he laid it down. This is what I think makes the JBLs and Altecs so exciting to listen to.

My opinion..........

 

[Rob]

LPD,

Nicely put.

Rob

 

[Hornphile]

Efficiency...?????

He did not even touch on the ultimate goal of many audiophiles “imaging”. To be able to pinpoint exactly from your (single) hot seat were the instruments are located. I am not necessarily saying that that is a bad thing but I have never heard of any performing band or artist where you had to sit in one particular seat to fully experience the ultimate musical enjoyment. As long as you are somewhere in front of the performance (speakers) it should be ok. What thrills me is the reality of the performance. The dynamics that high efficiency speakers provide plays a vital role in creating a real live performance. You must have heard the saying “lack of efficiency = distortion”. I don’t really care where the different instruments are located, as long as they sound real and the artist play well. Somehow I think that we have been lead down the wrong path somewhere.

For reference a speaker that delivers 92db/1 watt = 1% efficient. Every 3db more is a doubling of output and every 3db less is a halving of output. So an 89db speaker is ½% efficient and an 86db speaker is only ¼% efficient. 83Db would then be only 1/8% efficient. Ever wondered why there are so many BIG amps around. Think of it this way. With a 92db speaker 1% efficient and a 100watt amp delivering full power into the 1% efficient speaker you will get 1 acoustic watt. Talk about being shortchanged.

In our world a speaker with 92db rating is seen as efficient delivering only 1% efficiency however horns usually runs anywhere between 30% to 50% efficiency and I have read as high as 80%.

Peace,
Hornphile ity: ity: ity: ity:

 

[gonefishin]

Re: Efficiency...?????

Originally posted by Hornphile
He did not even touch on the ultimate goal of many audiophiles “imaging”. To be able to pinpoint exactly from your (single) hot seat were the instruments are located. I am not necessarily saying that that is a bad thing but I have never heard of any performing band or artist where you had to sit in one particular seat to fully experience the ultimate musical enjoyment. As long as you are somewhere in front of the performance (speakers) it should be ok. What thrills me is the reality of the performance. The dynamics that high efficiency speakers provide plays a vital role in creating a real live performance. You must have heard the saying “lack of efficiency = distortion”. I don’t really care where the different instruments are located, as long as they sound real and the artist play well. Somehow I think that we have been lead down the wrong path somewhere.

yea...it's kinda like that! nicely said.

I must admit, for some time I did find myself drawn toward the qualities of imaging and a wide/deep soundstage...and these are neat qualities...but no, You really don't hear live music like this.

Once I started listening to a couple horn systems...then a couple more...I thought to myself...man...this sounds like good music! Sure, there was still a soundstage...and it has imaging...but not over done. What I did learn that I enjoyed (and now, must have ) is low distorion with a good dynamic range...from the delicate sond of a triangle being hit in the background or a whisper to a sax playing as if it were actually there (well, almost).

I wonder...how many people have heard a sax or trumpet being played live in a small room? it really is something to be heard

 

[Tom Brennan]

Dan---Oh, I've heard saxophones in small rooms. I used to play in bands, a drummer, and often jammed down in my basement. Had my drums down there (over the years I had Gretsch, Rogers and Sonor), Fender, Marshall and Music Man amps, saxes, keyboards. No way some chinless audiophile speaker is gonna sound like live music, only big horns and big low-excursion woofers have a chance.

www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

 

[gonefishin]

Mike B...ok, aside from "crock a sh!t" being one of my favorite phrases...out of what I have listened to...horns are the only speakers that do have a chance at being like a live instrument. Other speaker systems I have listened to just don't get the dynamics and presence of the recorded music right...even speaker system costing six digits.

I haven't heard your new speakers...or anything similar...so I can't really comment on them...are they better than a big horn system? beats me. I know your not going to Lima this year...I would have liked to get a listen to yer new system...with a new baby anda ton of projects to get done...I really don't think I'll be able to make the drive to your house for a listen (tho I appreciate the offer).

So, until I actually hear your system, or a simialr one, I'll have to be an advocate of horns...as they DO do many things right. I think I have heard some nice sounding systems...but none are equal to live instruments in a small room. Sure, some are closer than others...but none I have heard so far are dead on.


Tom...I've been cursed with the uncanny inability to play ANY musical instrument...but, many around me are not inflicted with the same blasted curse...which I suppose is a good thing...considering. Horns (instruments) always did interest me...they have musical properties like no other...of course, live drums are pretty darn good too.

 

[Tom Brennan]

Mike----A crock? Is that so? I never thought direct-radiators were the ticket, I don't see why your's would be magical. I putzed with those big Heil tweeters 25 years ago and found them wanting, I don't suppose they've changed. But maybe you have them dialed-in better than I did.

Frankly your enthusiasms swing so wide and you change rigs so often, claiming each an improvement, that I don't know what to think of your claims though I know you've certainly had some very good sound.

Why don't you mend fences with Mike Baker and bring the rig to Lima?

I'll be passing by your place in a week or so on my way to visit my girl in DC, how about I stop in for a listen?