Full CD Quality Streaming Is Already Here & High-Res Coming Later This Year

[Vintagear]

I just want to get the word out to clarify misconceptions held by some out there on this forum. Lately I've realized that many here aren't aware that Tidal and others currently stream FLAC 44 kHz 16 bit 1411 Kbps bitrate Lossless CD quality audio.

While some here are just finding out that CD quality streaming is available and others hem & haw about whether it's actually any good, Tidal and others are already a step ahead working on offering a high-resolution (better than CD) streaming service.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/tidal-and-meridian-successfully-stream-high-res-mqa-files

http://www.xmos.com/blog/huw/post/2015-hi-res-streaming

Here's an excellent video interview from CES 2015:

http://www.whathifi.com/news/ces-2015-tidal-to-launch-high-res-streaming-service-using-meridian-mqa

While streaming may not be for everyone for various reasons, inferior sound quality can no longer be one of them. I understand that some will be slow to or never adopt streaming but there's no denying that it is the future.

This train is moving fast and everyone here (especially since this is an audio forum) should be well informed as to what is available today and how it is getting better by the day.

The future is bright indeed.

***Please, I request that discussion in thread stick with the topic of equivalent sound quality.This way it's not an emotional issue but a discussion based on provable STEM facts. Not emotional opinions/preferences like who owns it, who gets paid or who likes the physical format. Those issues will only sidetrack the question of equivalent sound quality. If you don't like streaming, fine don't use it. If you can contribute as to why a service like Tidal Hi-Fi does or does not provide the equivalent sound quality please join in. I hope it makes for a informative and enlightening discussion. Thanks.***

 

[Condorsat]

"You can lead hoarse to" ... we'll you know ...

 

[Vintagear]

"You can lead hoarse to" ... we'll you know ...

That's OK, I'm not trying to force them to drink. I just want the horses to know that the water in the stream is as good as the water in their bottles.

Oh, and there's an abundant supply of crystal clear water available in that stream, a lot more than any number of water bottles a horse can carry on it's back (or keep in it's stall).

This horse took a sip from that stream and has been drinking more water than I have in years and it's so refreshing!

 

[Vintagear]

I have not heard ANY streaming system that sounds good to me, including Tidal. That is mostly due to packet loss and the general problem with the internet. It is also because they use compression algorithms and there is enough use of those already.

Then there was definitely something wrong with one of your settings.

Check out this Squeezbox thread. The OP shared your experience until he made some recommended adjustments to the player, then the resulting SQ was equal. I'm not saying this is your issue, but it may give you something to go on.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103455-Tidal-Ickstream-sound-quality

 

[robgmn]

I have not heard ANY streaming system that sounds good to me, including Tidal. That is mostly due to packet loss and the general problem with the internet. It is also because they use compression algorithms and there is enough use of those already.

So, they're streaming at lossless 44.1, but are using compression to do it?
Color me confused.

 

[Vintagear]

They use compression to make the loudest and softest passages closer together,...

How did you come to that conclusion about Tidal? You need to back that statement up with something concrete.

I'll await your proof otherwise we will have to assume that you have been misinformed.

 

[Chris Brown]

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused in regards to this topic. I was under the impression that the main purpose of streaming was to replace radio. Some make it seem like the intent of streaming is to also make it pointless to maintain their own music collections.

I think streaming has lots of potential as a replacement for radio. In that context however, is having CD quality audio really the key, or does it simply need to be better than FM radio?

Really, in the situations where I use streaming (away from home mostly), I'd be more concerned about the extra bandwidth usage potentially demanded by that extra bit of quality than the sound quality itself. Maybe cell plans will offer realistic data usage limits in the future and that will change (10gigs per month is a lot right??? ).

 

[chicks]

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused in regards to this topic. I was under the impression that the main purpose of streaming was to replace radio.

Dunno how you got that idea. On-demand streaming means you can select from up to 35 million tracks, or a few million albums, to play at will, in any order you choose. You can build a huge playlist, if you wish, and randomize it to simulate radio, or not. Or, you can choose from any number of curated playlists, similar to radio, or start your own stations based on an artist or album.

Endless possibilities, all of them far more flexible than even the largest collection of CDs, and far more convenient.

 

[lizard84]

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused in regards to this topic. I was under the impression that the main purpose of streaming was to replace radio. Some make it seem like the intent of streaming is to also make it pointless to maintain their own music collections.

I think streaming has lots of potential as a replacement for radio. In that context however, is having CD quality audio really the key, or does it simply need to be better than FM radio?

Really, in the situations where I use streaming (away from home mostly), I'd be more concerned about the extra bandwidth usage potentially demanded by that extra bit of quality than the sound quality itself. Maybe cell plans will offer realistic data usage limits in the future and that will change (10gigs per month is a lot right??? ).

I'm not interested in a streaming radio format, I want to stream album mostly, I'm also not interested in it replacing my music collection.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

As far as ell data plans are concerned, I have 30 gig with roll over plan, but it really doesn't come into play as I download much of my music from Tidal and deezer elite at home for offline use when I'm not.

 

[chicks]

They use compression to make the loudest and softest passages closer together, sound wise. FM radio has done that for a long time and internet streaming is also known to do it.

Known by whom? That's the first I've heard of it. Proof, please.

 

[rnorton]

So, they're streaming at lossless 44.1, but are using compression to do it?
Color me confused.

Tidal will feed uncompressed 44.1 to Chrome browsers if you set up their app for that but they shut the stream down to MP3 compression for all other browsers without telling you directly. No idea why except that they probably took a bribe from Google.

 

[rnorton]

They use compression to make the loudest and softest passages closer together, sound wise. FM radio has done that for a long time and internet streaming is also known to do it.

My compression measuring software says that this is untrue.

 

[Vintagear]

Tidal will feed uncompressed 44.1 to Chrome browsers if you set up their app for that but they shut the stream down to MP3 compression for all other browsers without telling you directly. No idea why except that they probably took a bribe from Google.

https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/202643381-System-Requirements-for-HiFi-using-the-Web-Player-

Also, whatever player you use you need to be sure Hi-Fi FLAC 1411 is selected.

https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/202569662-What-Is-The-Difference-Between-Normal-High-And-HiFI-

 

[JP]

I'm confused. Are you saying they do compression, volume normalization, or both?

 

[Erik Tracy]

What happens when artists 'pull' their music from a given service, like Neil Young did (and others).

I now have to subscribe to multiple streaming services and hope that from month to month I get the supposed 'unlimited' access that I had the day before?

This could be like other sports franchise models where a given athlete or team is 'signed' to a given sponsor.

Do I need to subscribe to 2, 3, or more streaming services to get the musical selection I want? Or, just buy the media, or the download so I *own* it?

I get that streaming may be the only way to get music delivery in the future.

Until then, I think I'll collect and hoard my media and not be dependent on a 'service'.

 

[chicks]

I am not - talk to the Tidal people - the internet is full of background noise and they have to do something to make sure it sounds good.
.

Ah. It's pretty clear you have no idea how tcp/ip works, then... Ignore filter on.

 

[Erik Tracy]

Ah. It's pretty clear you have no idea how tcp/ip works, then... Ignore filter on.

So, not an internet expert, nor do I play one on tv, but for streaming 'live', isn't the protocol udp with no packet retransmits?

If a packet is lost, corrupted, dropped, it's gone. Or is there a delay/buffer implementation that would allow a tcp retransmit and re-building the audio stream w/ no glitches?

 

[chicks]

So, not an internet expert, nor do I play one on tv, but for streaming 'live', isn't the protocol udp with no packet retransmits?

If a packet is lost, corrupted, dropped, it's gone. Or is there a delay/buffer implementation that would allow a tcp retransmit and re-building the audio stream w/ no glitches?

You're right, they typically stream via UDP, but use buffering and additional protocols (RTP, RTSP) over UDP for error correction. Packet losses may result in dropouts, but The idea that Internet "background noise" will affect the sound quality in any other way is a misunderstanding of digital audio.

 

[Dr Tone]

So, not an internet expert, nor do I play one on tv, but for streaming 'live', isn't the protocol udp with no packet retransmits?

If a packet is lost, corrupted, dropped, it's gone. Or is there a delay/buffer implementation that would allow a tcp retransmit and re-building the audio stream w/ no glitches?

There's a buffer and error checking. I've never had a drop out or any other glitch using roon as my Tidal player via ASIO or WASAPI.

It's really no different than streaming the flac files from my NAS in implementation.

 

[Erik Tracy]

You're right, they typically stream via UDP, but use buffering and additional protocols (RTP, RTSP) over UDP for error correction. Packet losses may result in dropouts, but The idea that Internet "background noise" will affect the sound quality in any other way is a misunderstanding of digital audio.

Thanks.

Makes sense.