Good Question: What do you consider to be high end vintage gear?

OK, I disagree with the following:

Kenwood 700c. If you are going to put the 700c in, you also need to put the Pioneer Spec1, the Kenwood L07c and the Sony TAE86B, they are all equivalent TOTL products with similar or better specs and performance. Realistically, they were all TOTL at the time, but have been long since bettered in just about every performance parameter since. The Yamaha C1 is in the same boat (let's just put as many controls on one box as we can so wealthy people can show off their home system that has more dials and switches than Cape Canaveral mission control- it was never about pushing the performance boundaries- Sony did that with the 86B by leaving all the superfluous crap off the pre-amplifier in the pursuit of ultimate performance)

Harmon Kardon Citation which model? The Citation XX definitely. There has never been a better one, so all the previous Citations are by logic excluded IMO.

Kenwood 700M. Same reasons as above, include the equivalent power TOTL classic poweramps from Pioneer and Sony. But really, they were all about power, not finesse- the whole lot of them. That came later in the 1980s.

Ampzilla and Son of Ampzilla. People loved them because of their name. They did not outperform TOTL amps from Japanese manufacturers of the same era. Refer High Fidelity annual test reports from 1978/9/80. They are a physical mess inside, barely better than a DIY effort. Cheaply made, horrible cabinetry and noisy (fan/transformer) and no fun to repair.

If you've got an Onkyo Grand Integra M510, which I think is fair enough, we've jumped firmly into the late 1980s and there's a truckload of high performance statement amplifiers that are infinitely better than many on your list. Where is the Yamaha MX10000? Where is the Pioneer M90/91? (a way better amplifier than any of the Specs). Go forward a few more years and you've got Sony's TAN1. And where is the highest end Japanese amplifiers over the last 30 years- Accuphase's various models- all magnificent? What about Luxman and Denon's statement pieces from 1980-1995?

KEF concerto's are not deserving of being in the list. They were sold primarily as kit speakers and they are not much of a speaker to listen to, regardless of the factory the cabinets were made in. I've pulled countless drivers out of those horrible speakers and parted them out over the years.

And Yamaha's NS1000, 2000 and 10000 speakers are all high end. They always were. Sony had the SSG777es and the SSG333es in 1987, more high end speakers, but unknown outside Japan. I have a pair of SSG333es and they are high end, but the SSG777es were even higher end, so by logic mine are ruled out.

The little BBC LS3/5a is another one that is a cute little speaker that punches above its weight- that's all. It isn't high end. How could they be on the list and Infinity IRS Vs or Yamaha NS1000Xs not be?

It's a difficult thing proposing a list like this as people blurt out their favourite pride and joy pieces.

Why not just pick the very best from each manufacturer, the very best they ever made and nothing else? Then decided which are worthy of the final list.
 
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Restorer-john, I appreciate your input. I don't agree with everything you say, but that's OK. This is a very personal hobby with many aspects.

I've completed the list so far. As I have said a few times, I am tabulating the information put here. If I am in doubt, I will leave it out until readers make it clear it should be included.

To me, high end audio is about quality build and quality sound. I used to work for DEC, and learned to love well designed and well built equipment. And there are degrees. I look at my Bose 1801 and I think it is a well designed, well built unit with a few funnies, like plastic controls. I have been tempted to get duplicate McIntosh controls from a C32 and use them instead. Similar styling, but the Mc controls are mostly metal. I still think the 1801 is a high end unit though.

And in terms of who is right and who is wrong on this thread, I have no idea. And if I have left something out, that is very possible. Not to slight any product or person, but I am only human.

I am currently at post #95. I will update this number as I go.


Preamps

Bose 4401
Kenwood Supreme 700C
Luxman CL-35 III preamp
McIntosh C26
McIntosh C28
McIntosh C32
Threshold T2 preamp
Yamaha C-1
Yamaha CX-10000 control amplifier

Power Amps

Bose 1801
ESS Eclipse power amp
Great American Sound (G.A.S.) Ampzilla
Great American Sound (G.A.S.) Son of Ampzilla
Harman Kardon Citation
JVC JM-S7
Kenwood Supreme 700M
Kenwood L-09M
Kenwood L-07M
Luxman MB-3045 tube amp
Luxman A3000 tube amp
McIntosh MC2105,
McIntosh MC2300,
Onkyo grand integra m-510
Quicksilver M135
Threshold S/500 Stasis
Threshold SA-4e amp
Threshold S-550e amp
Yamaha B-1
Yamaha MX-10000

Speakers

Altec Barcelona
Altec-Lansing Model 19
Celestion Ditton 66
Dahlquist DQ-10
Dahlquist DQ-20
Dahlquist DQ-30
ESS AMT 1aM speakers
ET LFT speakers
Fisher XP-18
Infinity IRS Betas
JBL L300's
Kef Concerto
Kef 107
Kef 105
Kef 104/2
KLH Model Nine Electrostatics
Martin-Logan CLS.
Nestorovic Labs System 12
Nestorovic Labs System 16
Quad ESL 57
Rogers LS3/5a
Speakerlab 50s
Wharfedale W90
Wharfedale SFB/3
Wharfedale Airedale
Yamaha NSX-10000 speakers
Yamaha GF1
 
Did you know that the three McIntosh preamps on your list are what most mac owners would not put on a list of top gear. They are not even close to having a great reputation and as such are a low budget buy-in to the mac world.
 
I chose them as they were to TOTL Preamps at that time.

This thread is for high end vintage preamps, amps, and speakers from the 70s and 80s. I thought they were appropriate.
 
So, what year is the cut-off for what is being considered "vintage"?

If we are talking about pre-1990, then I would add the silver-faced SAE gear, the Superphon series by Stan Warren, and the Audible Illusions gear from 1978 to 1990.

All considered high end at the time.

And, most importantly, where the heck is ARC in you list? A glaring omission from the one American company that kept an unbroken lineage of tube electronics from inception to the present.

You also have the Quicksilver M135, what about the 8417 monoblocks? The M135 did not come out until 1992...the KT88 mono beat that by four years.

There's more, but I gotta run...
 
Damn, I have no "high end" vintage gear but do have apparently one that would "almost" make the cut, pair of Wharfedale W70Ds... (one step down from W90)

guess I have more work to do.

Opinion of DCM? I just got rid of a pair of TF1000s, the new owner seems happy with them and opinions on them seem to range from "yes they are high end" to "junk." They do have that fine Michigan build quality but the crossover design is very interesting and they're reputed to sound rather good. (I never had a space to properly set them up in, unfortunately.)
 
The definitions for high end gear seems to be evolving somewhat. For the purposes of this thread, I am interested in hearing what people consider to be high end gear from the 70s and 80s. For me, I consider high end gear to be well designed, well made, with high sound quality (at that time). In general, if it was consider high sound quality then, then it should apply in the present. Granted that there have been improvements in results since then. However that is outside of the topic of this thread.

Excluding turntables, integrated amps, cd players, and tape decks. I did that because tabulating the results would be a daunting job.

I will try to update my list on a daily basis, but won't guarantee it. Life...

If anybody has an idea on how to deal with conflicts where one member thinks something is high end, and another thinks not, I would love to hear about it.
 
I think the list is more an OP wish list that they would want at this point.
The only thing in the Mac list that is a yes is the MC2300.
 
Damn, I have no "high end" vintage gear but do have apparently one that would "almost" make the cut, pair of Wharfedale W70Ds... (one step down from W90)

guess I have more work to do.

Opinion of DCM? I just got rid of a pair of TF1000s, the new owner seems happy with them and opinions on them seem to range from "yes they are high end" to "junk." They do have that fine Michigan build quality but the crossover design is very interesting and they're reputed to sound rather good. (I never had a space to properly set them up in, unfortunately.)
I feel you, Nate! My MC2100s and 250 didn't make the cut but I am ok with that! The DCM's may be upper end mid-fi than totl hifi. The staging is very good and my large basement room fills with sound better than the BW's. I passed on DQ-10s btw, thought they were too big.
 
Not to worry. It seems none of my gear is either. As to the list being a wish list of what I would like, the answer is no. Most of the list is just compiled out of the contributions so far.

I love my gear and honestly thought, as some others did, on this thread and others, that my gear was considered high end. If that is not the case, no problem. Most of what is considered high end is beyond me, and to be frank, I haven't heard it and therefore have no drive to acquire it.

However, it is clear to me that I am way out of my depth here, so I am bowing out. Feel free to contribute as you wish. I'm not bitter about this. I just don't see how I can contribute anymore.
 
I'm not sure a list is possible, for a lot of reasons. Here are things I think about when asked what's vintage high-end:

The Levinson LNP-2 was the unit that started high end audio, closely followed by the ML-2. LNP-2's contain a whole bunch of proprietary sealed modules that are unobtanium (or so I'm told). They're robust (most units still work), but when they do go, it's game over. See pic.

A Sansui TU-9900 is a very good tuner, but if you have it upgraded, it's a great tuner. All of its parts are serviceable, and the upgrade route is clear.

A working LNP-2 is a far more classic piece of high-end gear, but the upgraded 9900 is good much farther into the future. They'd both be on my list, but they're very different pieces; so I wind up thinking there's no definitive list.
 

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I agree that there cannot be a definitive list. The hobby/industry has been developing for decades with highs and lows, breakthroughs and seismic global shifts in manufacturing, R&D budgets and the passing of many of the true pioneers of the hobby/industry. Many companies and/or legendary designers have exited the industry and only leave a legacy or a few breakthroughs or respected products that have been long since bettered but still deserve a place in the evolution of hifi.

Also, trying to get any form of consensus in this hobby is impossible, with guys here who have been listening and building audio gear since the mono days right through to blokes who have never owned a CD or a turntable.

There are however many pieces of gear that could be considered seminal or important to the evolution or direction of hifi and that list would probably be easier to compile. (or would it?) :) The Levinson mentioned is one such product.
 
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Interesting. I looked over the list. If I were in a classic audio shop and everything on that list was available for $500 each and in good condition, I think the only three things I would buy would be the Quicksilver M135 monoblocks, the Threshold SA-4E and the Rogers LS3/5a. Might consider the Quad ESL-57.
 

This is a speaker that has intrigued me quite a bit from time to time. Julian Hirsch reviewed it for High Fidelity in '67 and said it was the best-sounding, most-natural speaker he had ever heard. A significant boast at that period in time, when you consider Rectilinear's competition in 1967. It's no surprise that Rectilinear fans are usually Wharfedale fans as well and vice versa, as both brands shared many common characteristics (The Rectilinear III and the W90 are both 6-driver bass-reflex systems with a very-wide dispersion and soundstage).

One thing I've noticed is, there are clearly many different perceptions of "natural, uncolored" sound, depending on who you talk to. Take AR for instance. The AR3 and AR3a have a powerful kick to the bass. Some consider it to be unnatural in a "larger than life" sort of way (Gilbert Briggs did). Wharfedale, on the other hand, had a very-laid-back bass response, and yet, there are those out there who consider them to be "colored and unnatural". Rectilinear seems to be somewhere in between the two. A fan of the Yamaha NS models would probably take issue with the sound of Wharfedale, AR, AND Rectilinear. Everybody's perception is a little different, which I definitely feel is a good thing, as it keeps us from being a planet full of robot-like fans of Stepford-fi. Perish the thought.
 
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^^^^^^
Although his job was to sell audio to the public, I have no doubt that in 1967 Hirsch's perception was that the Rectilinear III was the "most natural speaker......"
From what I hear, the sound quality is hard to find fault with or argue against, regardless of differences in perception.
 
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^^^^^^
Although his job was to sell audio to the public, I have no doubt that in 1967 Hirsch's perception was that the Rectilinear III was the "most natural speaker......"
From what I hear, the sound quality is hard to find fault with or argue against, regardless of differences in perception.

Maybe someday there'll be a "natural-off" at one of the regional get-togethers where the top contenders can strut their stuff in a no-holds-barred, all-natural throwdown.
343a83c9191d80965f02f76b76d64bd3.jpg
 
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What I keep finding is that getting to know your gear, overcoming the learning curve as well as staying on top of maintenance issues, is EXTREMELY-important. Surely just as important as the gear itself. Our ears can get lazy, so it pays to give your gear a quick checkup once in a while.
 
I do agree with Martin Logan CLS .., used to have a pair .., so much magic when the entire chain adds up .., when that is said, I think the Martin Logan Monolith should be in the list too .., it was the first and original curvalinar line source.
 
I'm completely blown away by the recent purchase of a restored GAS Theadra ll preamp. I'm amazed by how much a good preamp can change a whole system's sound quality. Now I want a GAS amplifier but would have to pay for restoration. Oh, how this hobby eats money. Even if I had the knowledge, I couldn't do soldering in my apartment. I have two asthmatic cats and poor ventilation.
 
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