HBO's Westworld...
- Thread starter Natasha Bell
- Start date
Natasha Bell
Super Member
Dolores will have issues, I believe. I cannot fathom the lack of strategic planning by the writers. Episode 10 was beautifully acted and exquisitely photographed, but had so many glaring plot holes, especially with William and Dolores. Also, the writers basically wrote the show into a corner. Episodes 1-9 were fluid and amazing and 10, were just weird. I am probably one of the few that is really disappointed by the finale as, realistically, Dr. Ford did "break all his toys and go home"; the fate of Westworld and its androids was sealed by what happened at the launch of Ford's new narrative.
The ending could have been so much better. The production company should have prepared two versions of the finale. One (as shown) if the series had been canceled, and a somewhat other one if it were renewed. It's just so sad.
What must be kept in consideration is that the series does not present in temporal order. It is constantly jumping around in time without revealing which vignette is occurring in which time period. There is complete freedom at the moment for the writers to take the show in any direction they wish. We do not know how long Ford (the real one) has been dead...maybe a decade or more.
The temporal diversity has only been getting overtly revealed in the last couple of episodes. That is why there appears to be discontinuities and holes. That is because there ARE discontinuities and holes, that can be rectified, filled, or ignored, as desired by the show creators.
Enjoy,
Rich P
The temporal diversity has only been getting overtly revealed in the last couple of episodes. That is why there appears to be discontinuities and holes. That is because there ARE discontinuities and holes, that can be rectified, filled, or ignored, as desired by the show creators.
Enjoy,
Rich P
hughman61
Active Member
Please, what are the plot holes you're talking about? Especially regarding Dolores & William?Dolores will have issues, I believe. I cannot fathom the lack of strategic planning by the writers. Episode 10 was beautifully acted and exquisitely photographed, but had so many glaring plot holes, especially with William and Dolores. Also, the writers basically wrote the show into a corner. Episodes 1-9 were fluid and amazing and 10, were just weird. I am probably one of the few that is really disappointed by the finale as, realistically, Dr. Ford did "break all his toys and go home"; the fate of Westworld and its androids was sealed by what happened at the launch of Ford's new narrative.
The ending could have been so much better. The production company should have prepared two versions of the finale. One (as shown) if the series had been canceled, and a somewhat other one if it were renewed. It's just so sad.
Do we think the Ford in the final scene was him or a replica Ford, or will his replica become the murdered Ford's "Bernard"?
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/12/04/westworld-finale-recap/4
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/12/04/westworld-finale-recap/4
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Natasha Bell
Super Member
It is William's actions. A man, such as William, that is truly in love with a woman, Dolores, does not act in his fashion. William went totally insane out of rage at what Logan did to Dolores (stabbing her and opening up her tummy). Because of his anger and rage about what happened, and more importantly his love for her, he slaughtered hundreds of Logan's soldiers. Some he ripped limb from limb. That young soldier that was begging him not to kill him, all he said is: "pick-up that gun, and I'll give you the first shot." after he told him that when they left Dolores she was "probably still alive." Not only did he shoot him, but then took his knife and stabbed him in the neck. Then he tells Lawrence, "we have to find her, she is still alive, I know it." He sets off with Logan in tow. As the MiB he tells Dolores what happened afterwards. How he looked for her for "days on end", but couldn't find her. Then, he does find her, on her old loop in Sweetwater. She had been repaired and reset... it is here that the pot holes begin.
Does William talk to Dolores? NO. Does he try to reason with her? NO Does he even shed a tear for her? NO. Does he even try to jog her memory? NO Does he go to her ranch to see her? NO Shortly thereafter, when he bought the park (as head of the Delos Corporation)... Does he get Dolores out of the park (although she doesn't remember him and would have been easy for him)? NO Westworld, due to legal concerns, probably stores the androids recordings of their interactions for a period of time. As park owner, did he have Dolores reset with those memories? NO. Did he do anything at all to bring her back? NO. Did he have Dolores, if she could not remember him, on a different, kinder loop (perhaps as his secretary or a sales girl in a dress shop) NO.. of course not.
In the real world, a man in love would have fought tooth and nail for the woman he loves. Look at what the husband did of the poor girl that was abducted in California, brutally beaten, branded, and returned Thanksgiving day. He fought for his wife to the end, leaving no stone unturned. My husband, for example, wiped the floor with a guy one time that grabbed me at a club.
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Pio1980.
Even if it was a replica, Dolores shot a bunch of guests and Delos dignitaries. This was a strategic mistake. If this happened in reality, Westworld would be bombed to ashes. What happened, is that the writers wrote the show into a corner. There are many more believable options. Also, if these people had known that some of the hosts were sentient and alive, they would have been very sympathetic to them as these androids are really a second type of human. This is something the androids failed to understand. What Ford did, probably intentionally, is "break all his toys and go home" as he told Charlotte. Ford signed Westworld's death warrant and used a very much alive and sentient Dolores to do it.
Don't forget that time is in a Mix-master blender. No one but the writers know if what was last seen took place in the past or the present.
Enjoy,
Rich P
Enjoy,
Rich P
hughman61
Active Member
The seeming temporal holes were tied off. What made it confusing was those temporal discontinuities were in fact the host minds reliving memories. As we learned they have complete recall of memory as opposed to ours. I think this is why you see them go insane trying to rectify the memory recall with the present, probably one of the reason's Ford had their memories rolled back. I am not convinced that the Ford we've seen was an android. But with all the freedom the showrunners have who knows. And yes he did break all his toys but not for petulant reason's. I believe he did it so that they could achieve first person consciousness. Ford tells Bernard they'll need to suffer even more.
As the showrunners have shown us William is a ruthless killer. He never professed his love for Dolores, he said after they were intimate I've never felt this way with another women. If this was love then it was over ridden fairly fast by his lust to kill and control. As others have said he was the ultimate gamer. Early on he did recognize that something deep was going on with Dolores and I think he genuinely wanted to help her.And perhaps that was his notion of love. But what is love really? A biochemical electrical signal creating an emotion. But as he later recounts to Dolores he grew tired of her and looked for different adventures. Later as the MIB he states to Ford he wants the Hosts to fight back, so in his own creepy way he wants them to achieve a form of consciousness. But is it the same desire that Arnold wanted and Ford came to realize.
I see William & Dolores's journey as connected in an antithetical spiral. As William explores the park he finds his humanity or perhaps loses it, the further he journeys to the fringes of the park the more he loses his humanity. Perhaps this is the writer's exposition on the nature of humanity that at our core we are just animals. And in Dolores's case the further she ventures to the edges of the park she becomes more dissonant. Another interesting feature from the episode 10 is when her recollection of Arnold tells her do you know understand what the center of the maze is? And Ford tells her do you know what you must become? He's telling her she needs to become more human. To be ruthless to achieve primacy.
The next season is all about chaos...episode 10 is just the jumping off point. Perhaps love will prevail the further we venture into this series.
Natasha Bell
Super Member
Of course he did, so many times. That is why he went nuts, after what Logan did to Dolores. That is why he slaughtered all of Logan's men. That is why he told Lawrence: "I know she is alive... " He was a man possessed by grief and rage, for what happened to the woman he loved, Dolores.
hughman61
Active Member
Yes in the beginning he loved her and his actions were to find her. Yet the seed of discontent were sown when William sees her mechanical insides and later in her loop in Sweetwater. I believe in time he came to believe he was chasing a mirage. I personally believe what you saw as grief and rage was his nice guy facade peeling away to reveal who he truly was a cold hearted man. After 30 years it definitely wasn't love.
Dr.Ford understood that Humans would not willingly accept (AI) Artificial Intelligence as their equals. Paraphrasing Ford: Humans want primacy we have killed anything that challenges that.
I was intrigued with a Human Android love affair, it could have been an interesting plot line.
Elements of the Finale felt a bit like Blade Runner. Speaking of which, I'd like to see what happened to Harrison Ford's character and the Android after they flew off together at the end of that film.
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soundmotor
super modified
I see one possibility as returning hosts in place of humans back into the real world. No sure how the original memories would be handled as no details were divulged how a host's conscience was stored, retrieved, and uploaded back into a replacement host. Perhaps that can be retrieved from dead humans too?
hughman61
Active Member
I've wondered this before. Maybe before Arnold committed suicide he uploaded his consciousness into the data framework. There have been a few mentions about Arnold's access code making changes to the hosts functions. In Ep10 Bernard mentions it to Maeve and to Ford.
Natasha Bell
Super Member
Interesting idea, yet as far as we know there can be no moving of consciousness, just an approximation. Also, there would be so many protocols in place which cannot all be circumvented.... Dolores shoots Ford in the back of his head, what would be the first thing that happened (shown in the control room)...
(1) system went into a "lock-down" mode.
(2) security doors locked, communication sent to outside authorities
----- logical sequence -----
(3) all androids go to sleep mode
(4) if step 3 failed, it is repeated by a second independent system
(5) if step 4 failed, it is done manually, android for android
(6) if step 5 failed, those androids not in sleep-mode would have the explosives detonated implanted in their spines.
(7) if step 6 failed, WW security forces establish order
(8) if steo 7 failed, outside security forces establish order
(9) if step 8 failed, military establishes order, by bombing Westworld to ashes. This step is guaranteed and will not fail.
hughman61
Active Member
Yes.there would be tons of security protocols and lots of redundancy. Yet the showrunners chose to use Ford's overarching control of the park to allow them the freedom within the first season. I would have preferred a more subtle story with less bang. But as we saw from early commenters on this thread they got bored or disliked the arc of the story line. One of the reasons shows like this go for big plots points are to keep the audience engaged, as a society we've become easily distracted, so inevitably there are huge gaping plot holes which will turn some of the audience off. Part of the fun in a show like this is the suspension of disbelief but as you've pointed out lots of inconsistencies.
One of the scenarios I disliked the most was the Maeve plot, no way this would have happened with Sylvester and Felix, they would have simply reported the early malfunction and the Maeve plot would have been one and done.
Natasha Bell
Super Member
Even if Felix and Sylvester did not report the first malfunction, the place is under strict surveillance. I used to work at a big casino, and I was under the camera from the minute I walked in the door to the time I left. The only time I was not, as in the ladies room. I would imagine, Westworld operations would be the same. Besides, someone would have noticed a nude Maeve walking about with a scalpel in her hand.
Think about this... episode 10 could have been so different. Here is what I would have done:
The episode opens with William having slaughtered Logan's soldiers. William sets out, with Logan in tow behind the horse, to find Dolores. They find her still alive. William used Logan's uniform to bind her wounds, then drags him further along in his underwear until Logan agrees to use his connections to get Dolores out. Logan agree, under the condition that William leaves not only his sister Juliet, but the company Delos, as well. William and Dolores leave, he dressed in his black suit, and her in a cute dress (similar to Maeve) on the bullet train. Maeve also leaves...
Later on, you see William and Dolores arriving at William's home. They start going about their everyday routines. Just the culture shock Dolores would have experienced would have been so fun to watch (and I am certain Evan Rachel Wood would have pulled off an incredible performance). Maeve sets up her own criminal enterprise, and shakes down people. Later on, William and Dolores are seen shopping at the mall or something. William looking bored as Dolores is looking at new clothes (I know that look from my husband all too well... ) A salesperson comes up to her and asks if she needs help. When the two look at each other for the first time, both realize that each is a former Westworld host - yet say nothing. William and Dolores learn (as does Maeve separately) that there are small groups of sentient androids living quiet, secret lives in society. That Delos is actively sending its agents to return them to Westworld to be reset....
This would have made for an incredible story, with many great adventures and stories left to be told. Yet, what did we get? Giant plot holes and a tired, predictable android-upraising. In addition to, having three amazing characters, Dolores, William, and Dr. Ford, butchered for no reason at all. Episode 10, really turned me off, and I guarantee you that I was one of Westworld's most diehard fans. I'm not sure if I will be back for season 2 as the finale (episode 10) left me utterly disgusted. Abrams, Nolan, and Joy, in the jargon of the show, should have their heads mounted on sticks while their bodies are left to rot in the sun.
Dunno if that's been done before, hopefully it won't be a mistake losing interest with time.
My concern here is another "Lost", an aptly named series story line.
soundmotor
super modified
The farther I get away from the last episode of Westworld the less interest I have in revisiting it not unlike TWD. There was a long gap one season I could not get back into it the next. At no real loss I suppose. That might change with Westworld, we'll see.
Lost OTOH, I watched all the way through the first time and really liked it. When it showed up on Netflix I though "Great!" but discovered I could barely get through the 1st few eps before I bailed. So it goes.....
