HDCD vs SACD

[SuperLead100]

I just picked up a used cd today and just noticed that it says HDCD. I put it in the player and WOW! I really didn't expect it to sound much different than a typical cd but I'm really impressed to say the least. The cd is also a remaster so not sure what that ads to the "mix". It's being played on a Yamaha DVD-s1700 which also plays SACD's.
I'll check it out on a standard cd player as well, but for now this is pretty good.
Is there some technical difference between HDCD and SACD? Is one supposed to be better than the other?
Any info would be helpful.

 

[KeninDC]

SACD is higher rez than HDCD so, technically, it is "better" than HDCD. It often is. HDCD is a process which manages to code 20 bits into the 16 bit CD framework so there can be more dynamic range and other audio improvements.

I hear more of a difference between regular CD and SACD than I do between CD and HDCD. I'm not certain I can hear the difference between HDCD and CD. The WOW! you are hearing may simply be better mastering. Of course that same WOW! I hear on an SACD might just be the better mastering.

So, for me, I like a player that plays SACD, but don't really care if it has HDCD or not.

 

[Andyman]

Like Ken said, SACD and HDCDs are two different formats, with SACD being totally different and actually run through a whole separate laser and electronics. As to HDCDs most folks find them better, but are mixed on as to why since many of them are sourced from very good recordings in the first place. I have a couple Denon decks that play all three, so I'm basically set here

 

[SuperLead100]

SACD is higher rez than HDCD so, technically, it is "better" than HDCD. It often is. HDCD is a process which manages to code 20 bits into the 16 bit CD framework so there can be more dynamic range and other audio improvements.

I hear more of a difference between regular CD and SACD than I do between CD and HDCD. I'm not certain I can hear the difference between HDCD and CD. The WOW! you are hearing may simply be better mastering. Of course that same WOW! I hear on an SACD might just be the better mastering.

So, for me, I like a player that plays SACD, but don't really care if it has HDCD or not.

I'm thinking that too, better mastering. Anyway, it really struck me as being very different.

 

[hjames]

The older Oppo Players do HDCD as well as SACD - the newest UDP do not do HDCD.
HDCD was an American technology bought by Microsoft that kind of slipped by the wayside, sadly ...

My ancient Oppo DV-981HD says:
DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, SACD, CD, HDCD, Kodak Picture CD, CD-R/RW, DVD±R/RW, DVD+R DL, DivX (DivX Certified Home Theater Profile Parameters, V2.2. Covers DivX 3.11 – 5.1)

My more recent BDP-103D says
BD-Video, Blu-ray 3D, DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, AVCHD, SACD, CD, HDCD, Kodak Picture CD, CD-R/RW, DVD±R/RW, DVD±R DL, BD-R/RE

I probably have 40-50 HDCDs

 

[SuperLead100]

The older Oppo Players do HDCD as well as SACD - the newest UDP do not do HDCD.
HDCD was an American technology bought by Microsoft that kind of slipped by the wayside, sadly ...

I didn't know this, thanks for the info!

 

[JoeESP9]

There was at least one version of Windows MP that had an HDCD option.

 

[soundboy]

It's being played on a Yamaha DVD-s1700 which also plays SACD's.

Does the Yamaha decode HDCD? Any CD player will play a HDCD, but to hear the benefits of a HDCD (if any), it needs to be properly decoded by a HDCD-capable player.

On the other, a hybrid SACD can have a HDCD-encoded CD layer.

 

[hjames]

Not many can decode hdcd.

Usually a disc is either HDCD or SACD-dual layer not both.

Exactly! - all machines can play HDCD as if it was a standard redbox CD, but it does take special chips to decode the extra bits and get the advantage of the encoding. My old Harman Kardon AVR 7300 (receiver) could do HDCD decoding. My Audio Alchemy DAC can do HDCD decoding (!) Both of my Oppo disc players can do the HDCD decoding. But most machines just play them as a standard disc without the extra bits and improved sound capability.

Oh, SACD is different. The are dual layer (hybrid) discs that any machine can play, but MOST SACDs require a machine with dedicated SACD chip to even produce sounds, due to Digital Rights Management (DRM).

 

[dosmalo]

I have found a few HDCD discs that don't state the fact (either on the jewel case sleeves or discs themselves) that they are encoded as HDCD yet will trigger the decoding chips and HDCD light on my DAC.

 

[SoNic67]

I have found a few HDCD discs that don't state the fact (either on the jewel case sleeves or discs themselves) that they are encoded as HDCD yet will trigger the decoding chips and HDCD light on my DAC.

They are mastered on (very rare now) HDCD ADC/encoders made by Pacific Microsonics. Lots of sound engineers think that those processors have a better sound, even without the specific HDCD flags, due to their digital filter.
One example: https://referencerecordings.com/about/
"Keith O. Johnson’s investigation of electronic behavior and acoustic perception led to his development (with digital engineer Michael Pflaumer) of the revolutionary High Definition Compatible Digital encoding process, produced and marketed by Pacific Microsonics (recently acquired by Microsoft). Reference Recordings released the first commercial CDs with the process. Currently all Keith Johnson masters are recorded at 176.4 kHz/24 bits, using Pacific Microsonics Model Two HDCD encoders. HDCD brings a high level of accuracy and musicality to digital recordings, whether made into compact discs, SACDs, or released as high resolution digital files on HRx discs or downloads."
Another example: http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-formats-history.aspx

More history, theory and a list of studios that are still using HDCD encoders: http://www.goodwinshighend.com/manufacturers/pacific_microsonics/pacific_microsonics_model_two.htm

 

[dosmalo]

Great info SoNic67 and thanks also for the links!

 

[restorer-john]

Sony Super Bit Mapping offered similar 'gains' to HDCD, but without the need for a dedicated 'decoder' chip and associated licensing royalties...

 

[SoNic67]

Sony Super Bit Mapping offered similar 'gains' to HDCD, but without the need for a dedicated 'decoder' chip and associated licensing royalties...

First it was dither. Then noise shaping
SBM just Sony's first attempt at noise shaping when going from 20 masters to 16 bit on the disc.
I suppose that the HDCD encoding process has a similar noise shaping.
All the recordings now have some kind of noise shaping when decimating from the 96/24 bit masters to the 44.1/16 bit on the disc, it just doesn't have a special name.

 

[hjames]

I have a ton of Grateful Dead CDs in HDCD format,
Also some Joni Mitchell CDs (Court and Spark and Hejira, I believe) .
An Everley Brothers gold CD and a number of others -
... I'll have to check when I am home next if you are interested ...

 

[KrisM]

I have a ton of Grateful Dead CDs in HDCD format,
Also some Joni Mitchell CDs (Court and Spark and Hejira, I believe) .
An Everley Brothers gold CD and a number of others -
... I'll have to check when I am home next if you are interested ...

I seem to recall a list out there somewhere that listed them all.

I have a few of them, but only one player that decodes them. Not something I've really given much thought to.
Oddly enough, I have one CD that has a sticker on the front saying that it is "NOT" HDCD.

 

[Putterman]

You forgot what I consider the most important distinction between SACD and HDCD which is the multichannel capability of SACD. To an increasing extent Blu Ray is supplanting SACD for this purpose. Personally I haven't noticed huge differences between any of them in 2 channel although I'll use the best format if possible.

 

[JoeESP9]

Foobar has an HDCD plugin. If the original disk was HDCD encoded before ripping Foobar will decode it. Ripping a CD leaves the HDCD tag (if any) in the rip.

 

[hjames]

You forgot what I consider the most important distinction between SACD and HDCD which is the multichannel capability of SACD. To an increasing extent Blu Ray is supplanting SACD for this purpose. Personally I haven't noticed huge differences between any of them in 2 channel although I'll use the best format if possible.

Sure, but for folks who are doing 2 ch, it goes unnoticed.
I have plenty of multichannel SACDs - which are great on our multichannel system - but not everybody has one.

 

[SoNic67]

I have real SACD's and I am listening them sometimes in my living-room surround sound system. But truthfully, I am listening 10x more in stereo with my headphones because I don't have always the living-room for myself (TV is there so wife, kids are there too).
That's just me.