headphone amps?

Interesting thread; a lot of misunderstanding about headphones and how they work (and how amps work). Here are some insights from an unimpeachable authority:

"The matching of impedance between a source and a load becomes important when maximum power has to be transferred. This is not the case with headphones. They will require only a very small power in the order of a few thousandths of a watt." - Sennheiser

"Since power considerations are more or less insignificant (all amplifiers have ample power to drive a headphone), we have to focus on the available signal level, measured in volts. Each headphone has its characteristic efficiency and impedance, and the listening volume will therefore be directly related to the level of the audio signals." - Sennheiser

"A home-type hi-fi amplifier delivering 10 watts into an 8 ohm speaker develops 9 volts at its output terminals." - Sennheiser

To put these values in perspective, my phones are 2000 ohms and deliver 102dB at 0.001 watt (1.41 volt, 0.00071 amperes).

Think about the implications of this... until the output current exceeds twice the bias current, a class AB amp is operating in class A. This suggests to me that virtually all headphone listening is in class A.
 
Last edited:
Think about the implications of this... until the output current exceeds twice the bias current, a class AB amp is operating in class A. This suggests to me that virtually all headphone listening is in class A.

I hadn't thought about that in those terms before, but I believe this to be totally correct.

Now we're just left with the factory installed series resistor in the headphone circuit of some amplifiers and the potential for a higher noise floor to support large output swings as the differences that exist between "headphone amps" and "normal amps".
 
The McIntosh C220 has an OpAmp headphone out that really could not handle the Senns, so in my case a separate headphone amp has an obvious benefit.

I just looked at the service manual for my McIntosh C220. The headphone out IS from the main 12AX7 stage to a IC buffer. The Lehmann BCL blows it away.
 
I just looked at the service manual for my McIntosh C220. The headphone out IS from the main 12AX7 stage to a IC buffer. The Lehmann BCL blows it away.

well also the mcintosh output impedance is only 250ohms compared to lehmann which is 300ohms@200mw. i'm not sure how much power is driven into 250ohms on the mcintosh but output specs alone should explain it.
 
This is a strange statement, you say it has bested the Grado (probably the most uncoloured neutral sounding headphone amplifier) what do you mean by bested ? do you not just mean you prefer as the little dot 1+ doesn't have any valve amplification just a valve buffer driven into an opamp with transistor output. The valve simply adds distortion ie: its own sound signature.

Your experience is not that vast if you honestly think the Grado RA-1 is the "most uncoloured neutral sounding headphone amplifier." Have you seen what's inside the RA-1? After living with the thing for about a year, I saw the pictures and explanation on the internet, and realized why the thing always seemed kind of blah to me as far as sound is concerned. By "blah" I mean flat, lacking in detail, and weak on dynamic punch.

The Pro-Ject was a clear step up from this.

The I+, regardless of the design of the circuit, cost little over 1/3 of either of the above two amps (there goes your convenient theory about the psychological effect and pride of ownership), and delivers a more realistic sounding and lively presentation. If the tube buffer is introducing distortion, it's apparently of a more benign type than what occurs with the Pro-Ject and Grado.
 
Just for reference:

The Grado RA-1. Looks to be nothing more than a CMOY amp with the cheapest and most inexpensive parts.
2142149.jpg


There can't be more than $5.00 total cost of parts in that wood block, and I'm sure $4.50 is in the wood alone. To say that this RA-1 offers an accurate tonal range and is neutral sounding only proves a lack of actual listening comparisons between headphone amps.
 
Last edited:
well also the mcintosh output impedance is only 250ohms compared to lehmann which is 300ohms@200mw. i'm not sure how much power is driven into 250ohms on the mcintosh but output specs alone should explain it.

Yeah, I think output impedance is the main factor in what I am hearing. The HD800s are hard to drive and unforgiving.

Here is a nudie of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear Headphone amplifier.

1000x500px-LL-20d32fbd_LehmannBCL.jpg
 
Last edited:
There can't be more than $5.00 total cost of parts in that wood block.

True, but even in the most expensive HA there is what...$50 to $75 worth of internal parts (some of which are themselves overpriced due to hype) and the whole thing costs maybe $100 to make? The rest is profit and hype that makes the "decent/budget hi-fi" ones go for $100+ and the expensive ones $1000 and up. Just like with most audio gear (and many other consumer goods as well)...little black boxes (or metal/wood) that cost thousands? For what? Are they made from unobtainium by meta-dimensional magical elves? :D

I have heard that the Grado amps are something to stay away from, but that would be due to design/sound signature more than "quality" of parts just like much other audio gear. Of course, this is assuming that HA even make a real difference and that there are large differences between them (again, ime this is true, but that could all be due to psycho acoustics/placebo as I'm more than willing to admit--and have always somewhat suspected).


Here is a nudie of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear Headphone amplifier.

1000x500px-LL-20d32fbd_LehmannBCL.jpg

Wow...that looks so much like my Matrix M-Stage (BCL "clone"). (Google for pics). Good amp that should power hard to drive cans well as it does with mine that seemed, ime, to not do well with receiver/amp outs or even my other two HA (again, this could all be due to faulty perception).
 
Your experience is not that vast if you honestly think the Grado RA-1 is the "most uncoloured neutral sounding headphone amplifier." Have you seen what's inside the RA-1? After living with the thing for about a year, I saw the pictures and explanation on the internet, and realized why the thing always seemed kind of blah to me as far as sound is concerned. By "blah" I mean flat, lacking in detail, and weak on dynamic punch.

The Pro-Ject was a clear step up from this.

The I+, regardless of the design of the circuit, cost little over 1/3 of either of the above two amps (there goes your convenient theory about the psychological effect and pride of ownership), and delivers a more realistic sounding and lively presentation. If the tube buffer is introducing distortion, it's apparently of a more benign type than what occurs with the Pro-Ject and Grado.

Just for reference:

The Grado RA-1. Looks to be nothing more than a CMOY amp with the cheapest and most inexpensive parts.
2142149.jpg


There can't be more than $5.00 total cost of parts in that wood block, and I'm sure $4.50 is in the wood alone. To say that this RA-1 offers an accurate tonal range and is neutral sounding only proves a lack of actual listening comparisons between headphone amps.

Dear me you are getting desperate now, no substance to any of these posts......more parts = better sound, do me a favour.
 
Dear me you are getting desperate now, no substance to any of these posts......more parts = better sound, do me a favour.

HAHA. Desperation has absolutely nothing to do with knowing a dedicated amp will sound better than an all-in-one receivers amp - especially when you own both and can make direct comparisons at any given time. But you'd probably just find flaws in the comparisons like timing, poor cables, or ear wax, or the earth's gravitation pull or something like that other than just actually listening. I guess if you really knew anything about headphones amplifiers, much less own and heard them, you'd stop many pages ago. But then again the masses have spoken. Either everyone is suffering from mass paranoia or you are the only one who knows "the truth". LOL. :music:

Jimmy
 
HAHA. Desperation has absolutely nothing to do with knowing a dedicated amp will sound better than an all-in-one receivers amp

Why would this be?

- especially when you own both and can make direct comparisons at any given time. But you'd probably just find flaws in the comparisons like timing, poor cables, or ear wax, or the earth's gravitation pull or something like that other than just actually listening. I guess if you really knew anything about headphones amplifiers, much less own and heard them, you'd stop many pages ago. But then again the masses have spoken. Either everyone is suffering from mass paranoia or you are the only one who knows "the truth". LOL. :music:

Jimmy

I think that if a test could be made whereby the listener doesn't know whch choice he or she is listening to and a difference could be detected more than 50% of the time, that would be a good starting place. After (if) the difference could be detected, we could disect the differences and find out which amp style is more "pleasing". I agree that the cost of the parts does not determine the resultant performance. Knowing what is "good enough" and where diminishing returns begins is and always has been a core value for good engineering practices.
 
Why would this be?



I think that if a test could be made whereby the listener doesn't know whch choice he or she is listening to and a difference could be detected more than 50% of the time, that would be a good starting place. After (if) the difference could be detected, we could disect the differences and find out which amp style is more "pleasing". I agree that the cost of the parts does not determine the resultant performance. Knowing what is "good enough" and where diminishing returns begins is and always has been a core value for good engineering practices.

So you think being desperate would either wrongfully or rightfully change your perception on how an amplifier, or headphones, sound?

A/B listening tests are, for a lack of a better statement, the test that can't be won simply because someone will always cry that some part of the test can never be fully tested, affected, or can be flawed. It's always something. But, your ears alone should be the ultimate test. Put YOUR headphones on and plug them into YOUR receiver, then into YOUR headphone amp. Which sounds better? The majority of headphone users will tell you what is already known and has been said in the previous 5 pages of this thread alone - headphone amps makes an improvement in sound over integrated all-in-one receiver headphone jacks. And, if you think quality of parts has nothing to do with how a product will sound, much less give you a hint about how well that company cares about it's products, then ever Craig, Krako, Emerson, Memorex stereo *should* sound the same and everyone paying over X price point ( whatever that may be in your theory of diminishing returns ) is being blind, foolish, and wasting their money because all products *should* sound alike.

I don't know. I'm no economics major, much less electronics master. I do trust my ears. And on this subject my ears tell me consistently that my headphones sound better than any of my receivers jacks. Just to clarify what equipment I'm using to make this "personal judgement and opinion", it's is as follows: McIntosh C-39 preamp with a very nice headphone circuit, Carver C-4000 pre with a nice opAMP vintage circuit, Denon AVR-899 reciever, Onkyo reciever, direct headphone out on Denon SACD player, and my Little Dot MKIII headphone amp. On every unit my LD MKIII wins in overall sound quality. But hey, what do I know. I'm a lemming going with the masses.

No more from me on this subject.

Peace.

Jimmy6
 
So you think being desperate would either wrongfully or rightfully change your perception on how an amplifier, or headphones, sound?

?????? I don't know what you mean by this. My comment was about your statement that a dedicated amp will always be better than an all-in-one receiver. Apparently, you know why a "dedicated" headphone amp would yield better performance. This doesn't make any sense to me. Coould you shed some light on why, or why you think it would?

A/B listening tests are, for a lack of a better statement, the test that can't be won simply because someone will always cry that some part of the test can never be fully tested, affected, or can be flawed. It's always something. But, your ears alone should be the ultimate test. Put YOUR headphones on and plug them into YOUR receiver, then into YOUR headphone amp. Which sounds better? The majority of headphone users will tell you what is already known and has been said in the previous 5 pages of this thread alone - headphone amps makes an improvement in sound over integrated all-in-one receiver headphone jacks. And, if you think quality of parts has nothing to do with how a product will sound, much less give you a hint about how well that company cares about it's products, then ever Craig, Krako, Emerson, Memorex stereo *should* sound the same and everyone paying over X price point ( whatever that may be in your theory of diminishing returns ) is being blind, foolish, and wasting their money because all products *should* sound alike.

I don't know. I'm no economics major, much less electronics master. I do trust my ears. And on this subject my ears tell me consistently that my headphones sound better than any of my receivers jacks. Just to clarify what equipment I'm using to make this "personal judgement and opinion", it's is as follows: McIntosh C-39 preamp with a very nice headphone circuit, Carver C-4000 pre with a nice opAMP vintage circuit, Denon AVR-899 reciever, Onkyo reciever, direct headphone out on Denon SACD player, and my Little Dot MKIII headphone amp. On every unit my LD MKIII wins in overall sound quality. But hey, what do I know. I'm a lemming going with the masses.

No more from me on this subject.

Peace.

Jimmy6
While I do agree with you that there's always some argument of why blind testing is flawed, there has to be at least a recognition of flaws in the "I just trust my two ears" type of test. It's not just about "using your two ears". There's knowledge that you're listening to a "headphone amp", there's knowledge about the expensive parts inside (How could they not sound better?), along with all of the other error inputs. Blind testing's goal is to strip off all of the inputs except for the sound. There's been plenty of assertions stating how "headphone amps" sound better and are somehow different. They are amplifiers. they are not built for a specific impedance. Headphones come in a variety of impedances. The important factor is that the headphone amp has the ability to drive the lowest impedance headphones on the market. "Headphone amps" are just amps that don't have a high current or high voltage drive capability. They are just limited power amps.

I'm sorry you want to bail out of the discussion when faced with an opposing viewpoint.
 
HAHA. Desperation has absolutely nothing to do with knowing a dedicated amp will sound better than an all-in-one receivers amp - especially when you own both and can make direct comparisons at any given time. But you'd probably just find flaws in the comparisons like timing, poor cables, or ear wax, or the earth's gravitation pull or something like that other than just actually listening. I guess if you really knew anything about headphones amplifiers, much less own and heard them, you'd stop many pages ago. But then again the masses have spoken. Either everyone is suffering from mass paranoia or you are the only one who knows "the truth". LOL. :music:

Jimmy
I have seen no masses speaking on here just a few people saying 'I know they sound better blah de blah de blah' I have owned/used enough headphone and Hi-Fi amplifiers to have formed my own opinions.

There have been some good posts on here from jon_logan, JBL_man etc the rest are just dribble from ill informed people with no substance.
 
??????

I'm sorry you want to bail out of the discussion when faced with an opposing viewpoint.

It's just that this subject seems to be derailing, that's all. Let's just agree to disagree. :thmbsp: I'm of the camp that can clearly hear a difference ( a better difference ) when using a dedicated amp versus a one-size-fits-all. No big deal really. I trust my ears first and foremost.

Anyway, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading, learning, and discussing this subject with you and most everyone else. Giving opinions is a great way to learn, giving blanket statements is not. I'll keep silently reading this thread, and if I feel the urge may chime in again.:yes:

Peace

Jimmy
 
Interesting stuff.

I just did an A/B with my Nakamichi CR7A using it's headphone out and my Yamamoto HA-02 headphone amp.

There is clearly a difference. The CR7A headphone out sounds a bit dull, the sound is closed in and more in the center of the stereo image. Also, the sound is more punchier and does not have the delicate nature of the Yamamoto HA-02.
 
I have seen no masses speaking on here just a few people saying 'I know they sound better blah de blah de blah' I have owned/used enough headphone and Hi-Fi amplifiers to have formed my own opinions.

There have been some good posts on here from jon_logan, JBL_man etc the rest are just dribble from ill informed people with no substance.

Look, I think your post would improve with a little bit of finess in statement, the tone is not one that promotes healthy dicussion or reasonable reactions. You cannot say "dribble from ill informed people with no substance" simply because they go against your viewpoint. You say your opinions are based on your listening, and others have said their opinions are based on their listening, so what is the difference?, how much more informed are you from they, how much more substance do you have than anyone else?

I'll admit, I was wrong on points, mixed-up information and terms, and out of my league - I came out and said that, but to dismiss others post as mindless dribble, thus not insulting just the content, but the member as well, is just not cool. I don't mind being wrong, it's humbling, yes, but it was also a chance to learn and develop a certain feeling for ones hubris.

Please, do say that you enjoy post from certain members and value them, or contribute information, at the same time, remember that insulting and arrogance won't get us anywhere. This isn't just you, that's how I feel about every discussion.

The thing about the Grado Ra-1 is not it's number of parts, but actual value. Those parts are middle of the line at best, and for the price, could have been much better. Many do praise the minimalist approch to circuit design, but the grado should be better than it is for $400, where's a stepped attenuator, or a better, sealed-in pot?, that's not much to ask for. The other problem is that the Ra-1 would not be able to have as much power as a full push-pull output.

@Jazzgene, that's pretty interesting result. I've heard similar things with my headphone amp, it has better detail, but has a bit of a laid-back sound, which may just be my headphones nature. My older pioneers have a lot of punch to them, but don't sound as good(they are consumer-grade 70's 'phones, so that's fair). Imaging is a big part of headphone listening - I assume it has to do with channel seperation:)dunno:).

Also, that Yamamoto is both beautiful and interesting:thmbsp:
 
Hey 33&athird,

Glad to see you are still posting on this subject.

And as I just posted on another thread...

Just remember...

Just plug and play and try and change gear until you find what you like. :yes: :thmbsp:

Then it is :banana::banana::banana:

And egg_on_toast, thanks for the shout out on my posts. :yes:


And remember it is all about the :music::music::music:

(And yes sometimes it is about the gear and all of the arcane techno-babel).:scratch2::yikes::)
 
Last edited:
Look, I think your post would improve with a little bit of finess in statement, the tone is not one that promotes healthy dicussion or reasonable reactions. You cannot say "dribble from ill informed people with no substance" simply because they go against your viewpoint. You say your opinions are based on your listening, and others have said their opinions are based on their listening, so what is the difference?, how much more informed are you from they, how much more substance do you have than anyone else?

This is just a case of when one is simply not worth replying to 33 (for such statements surely evidence a disconnect with reason/reality); no reason to get upset or offended, just feel sorry for the poster if anything. That's how I took it, I know my (and your and many others') posts in here were far from dribble, nor do I (or you) lack any substance (and nor do any other posters itt as far as I can discern :scratch2: :D). And that's all that matters. :thmbsp:
 
Back
Top Bottom