Heating my garage.. suggestions

All right, my .02 on garage heating. They best, most cost efficient system I've seen is the in-slab, pex pipe with a commercail water heater or boiler. Not many of us are willing to tear out our garage slabs to enable it or we don't need that sophisticated a system. It is the best, though.
The hanging, vented, natural gas heaters are good and the newer models are fairly efficient. I've had a shop with the industrial Modines and like models and they work well but are energy hogs. With an 8'-10' ceiling they are overkill. I wouldn't have a ventless natural gas appliance in the house or garage. I don't need the worry about asphyxiation and there are vented options so why tempt fate.
I store a lot of paint, caulk, and other building materials that can't take freezing. I also like the fact that our cars are nice and toasty in the morning :D. The garage is also my haven/smoking lodge/workplace so keeping it warm is the best option.
I heat the garage 24/7, in winter, with a wood stove. I have a few things going for me that make wood the best heating option. I live in ex-urbia and trees are being removed and cut annualy. I have adequate equipment to cut, split, and transport it. I'm still physically able to move it around. A lot of folks think that wood is too much work but remember, if you cut wood, you get heated twice :thmbsp:.
 
Better look at those a little closer. They put out 400w.. That is about 4 lightbulbs per panel. You might not stay very warm unless you're leaning on it.:D

It was 17' F one morning here last week, and my bedroom was 70' throughout, and it's sole heat is one of these panels (at 3 cents an hour). I have the rest of the main floor of the house with minimal heat < 55' at night (and warm it up with a wood pellet stove during the day, hardly ever need to use the NG furnace).

The trick is to leave them on 24x7 and let the convection do the work on the room (of course, assumes the room is well sealed/insulated) - true, if you are starting/stopping with these panels, it DOES takes a VERY long time to warm up a cold room, i.e 1/2 day.
 
....but one needs to study local code .....

In my area anything other than black iron or approved flexible connectors to natural gas appliances is againist codes and all gas pipe plumbing must be done by a licensed plumber and inspected by the city. Or they'll have your meter pulled and you'll have to bring it all up to current code before they'll turn your gas back on. Justa warning check out the reg's in your area before doing anything, around here they also prohibit unvented heaters.

Since you have NG available, that's the route I'd go...only with a vented appliance. A unvented NG heater is 100% effecient, but will cause moisture problems if you run it a lot.

Excellent quotes listed above!!!



There has been a lot of good advice posted about solving your problem. I have several ideas you can think about (or not). :D

If you decide to go the gas-fired heater route, regardless of natural gas or propane, think about using CSST (corrugated stainless steel tubing). The cost of the tubing is greater than the price of black iron gas pipe, but the ease of installation and lower labor cost can translate into a competitive total cost between the two piping methods. Depending on the odd, difficult special case to run a gas line (for example, your attic), your cost may be less with CSST. If you, yourself, have ever run iron pipe (gas or water) or watched it being installed, the speed of CSST installation is amazingly fast over iron pipe. What would take several hours with iron pipe could be completed in one quarter the time (most probably quicker).

Caveat: Many county/municipal/city areas of the United States have either not adopted or overturned the CSST piping method. The reason being that a few homes in the USA in the past decade have burned when the homes had CSST installed and were struck by lightening. Usually, the CSST was installed adjacent (within several inches) to other metal utility structures in a home when it was installed. These other metal structures are metal piping such as other gas or water lines and metal chimney flues.


EDIT: In my zeal to trim the length of my post, I trimmed out the data about why a few homes with CSST burned when struck by lightening. DUH :stupid:
When electrically non-bonded CSST was in close proximity to the aforementioned metallic pipes or flues, the lightening energy would arc over to the CSST and rupture the thin-walled gas tubing with either pinholes or a larger burn-through. Some homes did not ignite and burn right away, but at later time when the leaking gas concentrated enough for ignition by a wayward spark or flame.



Yes, this could be a show stopper in using CSST, but the problem seems to have been remedied by bonding the CSST to the structure’s electrical service panel ground system to bring the CSST to the same grounding “potential” as the electrical service. Also, keeping the CSST as far away a possible from other ungrounded metal (flues, pipes, etc.) is prudent. You might have to have a gas plumber certified in installing CSST as well as a licensed electrician to install the electrical bonding wire. The debate continues in the gas plumbing profession as well as the municipal code authorities as to the long standing safety of CSST.

I have NO affiliation with the following companies except that I have Wardflex and Parker CSST gas piping in my home.

Here is some reading for a cold winter’s night on several different manufacturers of CSST:
http://www.wardflex.com/index.htm
http://www.wardflex.com/faq.htm
http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/home/
http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/why/tracpipe_vs_black_iron.php
http://www.gastite.com/homepage.php?pg=home
http://www.gastite.com/engspecs.php?pg=csst&idlink=link4
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/P...0-PGP2T FLEXIBLE GAS PIPING&vgnextfmt=default

All in all, you can not go wrong with tried-and-true black iron gas pipe.



Now, be very careful when calculating your electrical usage if you chose to go with resistance (electrical) heat. A watt is a watt and a Btu is a Btu. It makes no difference if the heat output (measured in Btu) is created in your home by consuming electricity or burning gas. The companies that give you the best-of-all-worlds cost in their product literature to run their electrical heater appliance sometimes don't tell you the whole story. An average cost per kWh (kilowatt-hour) of electricity is used to compute your cost to operate a heating device. Be sure to compare the same Btu output from a radiant panel heater to the same Btu output from an oil-filled electric radiator or pure electric coil, or a heat pump for that matter. Compare apples to apples, not oranges (sips watts) to rotten bananas (gulps watts). Also, does one heater use a fan and the other doesn't? That fan uses watts that is not used for heat output and, therefore, skews the cost to run the fan versus the cost to run a similar heater without a fan. Please take in consideration the perceived warming effects by an infrared radiant heater (heats a person) and a non-infrared space heater (heats the air and objects in a room). Some heater sales literature will compare their 400 watt money sipping heater to the competitor's 1,500 watt heater and then proceed to tell you how much money you will save... blah, blah, blah. Sure the competitor's product is more expensive to operate. It can use over 3 times the watts at high-heat setting versus the maximum setting of only 400 watts on the other unit. In conclusion, examine the cost of the units in comparison. Take in consideration that the low-cost money saving heater may be low in price because it puts out a small amount of heat (Btu/h). It may be of excellent quality, but ill fitting for your particular application.


At $95 each, and heats 100 square feet, I'd only need 3 for the garage! Not a bad idea!

Better look at those a little closer. They put out 400w.. That is about 4 lightbulbs per panel. You might not stay very warm unless you're leaning on it.:D


I am sure you have heard on the radio or seen on TV those commercials on the be-all-to-end-all electric whole room/small house heater made by the Amish. Well, at least the all-wood box the heater is in that looks like a fireplace is made by the Amish. A famous octogenarian radio personality is a spokesperson for this appliance. Most 120-volt electric space heaters are rated for 1,500 watts max input. Although, I have seen a few with 1,800 watts input. The heat output from this Amish heater will not be any greater or more room encompassing that a similar rated heater made by Australian Aborigines.

To calculate Btu/h (Btu per hour) output of an electric heater (for pure resistance heat - do not count fan wattage, if any): Heater input rated in watts * 3.4 = Btu/h

Example: A heater with 1,500 watts input rating = approximately 5,100 Btu/h heat output. [1,500 *3.4 = ~5,100 Btu/h]

Remember - Apples to Apples !

Hope this helps.
 
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Yeah at this point, looks like a vented natural gas system is the best long term solution. I freaking hated the fan kicking on and off in my folks garage. However, it was a very large garage and not insulated in the ceiling and maybe not in the walls. The fan running just annoyed the hell out of me, and was noisy.

Its going to cost me big bucks to run a gas line I suspect... which is unfortunate... I suppose it wouldn't kill me to have a plumber come out and quote it.

Evan
 
Guys, wanted to say thank you. This thread kicks ass. SAE... VERY Helpful stuff. I have no idea how a guy would run blackpipe through my attic honestly...

Evan
 
A good licensed gasfitter can also sometimes do magic you don't expect in terms of running the pipes where you wouldn't think it possible.

We recently replaced a clapped-out old wood fireplace with a new gas one and same problem: gas inlet on one side of the house, new fireplace on t'other.

Add to that a basement ceiling finished with drywall.

He ran it throught the ceiling notwithstanding the drywall with only a few small squares to put back in (he handed me the cut out pieces when he was leaving, all labelled as to where they went) then ran the rest of the way outside under our side deck. Result: you don't see a thing, and we have a gas installation like it was done when the house was built.

Reasonable fee too, IMHO.

But I'd like to point out that unless you do a complete refit of the garage and bring all of it up to interior spec, you will never have the same level of heat and guaranteed you will spend a bundle on the warmth you do get. Heat loss in the floor alone will eat energy (read $$) like a monster.

Plus, don't expect that you are adding to the value of the house: you may be the only person in WI crazy enough to want to heat a garage. Most people would ask why in hell you are bothering!? It's a garage, fer crying' out loud! :D
 
But I'd like to point out that unless you do a complete refit of the garage and bring all of it up to interior spec, you will never have the same level of heat and guaranteed you will spend a bundle on the warmth you do get. Heat loss in the floor alone will eat energy (read $$) like a monster.

Plus, don't expect that you are adding to the value of the house: you may be the only person in WI crazy enough to want to heat a garage. Most people would ask why in hell you are bothering!? It's a garage, fer crying' out loud! :D

Well the crux of the issue is this....

My basement is completely finished except for a teeny utility room that has the washer/dryer in it. My only workspace is in the garage unfortunately. I can tell you the garage will be insulated better than my house was when I moved in. I may do foam insulation over the exposed concrete. Who knows..

I plan on leaving this house feet first, it isn't worth shit in the current economy anyway! lol

I actually did a lot of work on my car when the temps were in the early teens at my apartment complex. I can tolerate a working temperature of as low as 40 degrees fairly well. I would be happy if I didn't have crap freezing on a regular basis!

My walls are open 2x4 construction right now, and I will blow R50+ into the attic here shortly. I have R15 or so in part of the walls then I will cover them with plywood. Drywall damages easily.

I love my garage LOL

Evan

EDIT: I feel photos are needed!

Newhousephotos007.jpg

Newhousephotos008.jpg
 
Looking at those pictures, one suggestion I have is to install 2x4 framing over the concrete walls and insulate with fiberglass. Also, check the sill plate for gaps.
 
Looking at those pictures, one suggestion I have is to install 2x4 framing over the concrete walls and insulate with fiberglass. Also, check the sill plate for gaps.

Angus, I knew that this would be suggested. Those areas of concrete are underground btw.

Thankfully, I sealed the sill plate area this summer while I was working on the outside of the house. There were definitely gaps!

Evan
 
I use an electric version of a hanging "Modine" type heater.

Requires 220v but eliminates the need for gas lines and venting.

You don't get the btu's that you get from gas, but I figure what I saved in installation costs buys a lot of electricity.

I do some woodworking, so I also don't have to worry about potential dust/fumes explosions...

Home centers carry these for around the $200 range.
Mine is the Fahrenheit brand.

Just an option...
 
OBMG74, thats a very good point you make. I have a box right there with no installation hassles. Around 200 bucks? Thats a deal.

I must admit, the idea of open flame in a garage concerns me a bit.

Evan
 
Sae2922

Correct you are, Sir. The power company sells watts, you need to determine how many BTU's per hr you are getting for how many watts you are buying to get your actual costs.

I also get a kick out of those Amish commercials...old gray haired Amish guy carefully nailing the facade together, then being delivered by horse and buggy! What a joke!

Ain't nothing but a plywood box, blasted together with nail guns, with an electric heater shoved inside, and delivered by tractor trailer. And advertised on teevee, no less!

Face it, a lot of those Amish are some sly operators.

My mother -in-law bought one and is convinced that she is saving money by running it as opposed to using her almost new NG Pulse furnace. And we have the highest electrical rates around, as the city owns the power grid and uses the profits as an under the radar tax. Our NG comes from ARMUE, and their rates are at least acceptable as they are regulated by the state.

Now I know better than to interject logic into her feel good line of reasoning...I'm a big enough of a Philistine already!!!

Good day,
Chas
 
Now this may sound janky but....

Is there any reason I cannot use a standard furnace just shoved in the corner? lol

I keep seeing them pop up cheap on CL.

Evan
 
Now this may sound janky but....

Is there any reason I cannot use a standard furnace just shoved in the corner? lol

I keep seeing them pop up cheap on CL.

Evan

I don't think there are any major issues. Over sizing the furnace could cause some problems as well as venting.
 
Yeah oversizing would def. be an issue. Venting is easily taken care of.

I went and checked out the farenheat mentioned in this thread before. They are currently on sale and around 300 bucks for a 7000 watt model. There is some appeal there for sure. I am going to hold my pennies until I get that insulation into the attic (within a few weeks).

Evan
 
Guys,

Don't know your codes down there.. but there are various regulations with respect to any natural gas appliance in space known as a garage. For instance, in our jurisdiction it must be at least 18" off the floor to mitigate any combustion of low lying flammable gases. Specifically, if the garage is capable of having a car in it ( not blocked off and converted to true living space) then the rule applies. Sealed combustion may mitigate this in some areas, but then your costs rise. Hanging from the ceiling is an option. Corrugated stainless pipe is probably your best option for gas line, copper is acceptable in some jurisdictions (mine) but given your description of your main feed, you'd likely have to use 5/8" or 3/4" which would make it unruly.

Radiant tube heaters are nice but you may not have the height to use them safely.. a pro can help here.

Hanging the appliance furnace or modine type and going with a b-vent through the roof may best. Whatever you do, make sure you use a qualified gas fitter/HVAC installer with the right permits. Keep it safe. Seen too many bad accidents with makeshift installations.

Good Luck,

Kcin
 
My practical solution-

Run the gas line.

www.reverberray.com/

These work great. Cheap to buy and install. 100% efficient and vent free. Instant heat under the unit for quick jobs, enough power with a thermostat to run all day.

Put a ceiling fan in the center and add a CO monitor with digital display.
Normal use will show 0ppm all the time, especially in the garage, which are not as tight as the house.
Insulate the door. Use old or cheap Indoor/outdoor carpet under the unit to keep the cement from sucking up the heat, don't worry about it getting dirty.
 
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