Help: pc sound card .... it all mumbo jumbo

[kenhappen2u]

i guess i have a two part question ... first off i am useing my pc onboard sound card it's a 6 chan 3D " cmi 9761a c-media ac97 blah blah blah.. useing the line out of my sound card i have a cable going to my pioneer sa-5200 amp . powering my pair of pioneer cs-63dx's speakers ( 2 speakers only) ..... the way it is set up now its sounds pretty darn good . but i would like to upgrade the sound card to a much better pci one . i am clueless as to what to look for ????
my choice of music is mostly MP3's i have stored on hard drive and also when i listen to online XM satellite . "alot" these days

i have noticed alot of talk about turtle beach sound cards and M-audio and something about 24/96 ? . can anyone tell me what kind of inprovement i will notice with a upgraded sound card over my stock onboard one and what all the numbers mean and what should i be looking for .??


part 2 ... when i listen to my XM satellite onlive via computer i notice that its playing at 64k/bits second . @ wideband setting

is this telling me something or i need to consider when im looking for a new sound card ? i dont know if this matter but i
plan on keeping it a 2 chan. only set up . no 12 speakers no surround sound and no sub .

thanks for your time reading this hope it makes sense ....i feel real stupid about now
ken

 

[cheon57]

I am in about the same situation as you are. I have archived the majority of my music to harddrive and am feeding my stereo with line out. Currently using Soundblaster Live card. I have been looking at upgrading for some time now. I have looked at TurtleBeach, M-Audio and a couple of others. I have decided that whatever I do, I want to remove the actual sound card operation from inside the PC case so am looking at units that have breakoutbox leaving only a basic interface card actually in the case.

 

[KingBubba]

Turtle Beach has always served well for me. Look into the Audio Advantage series on their website. They are offboard but really very effective when trying to get away form the motherboard sound card. These are all on a consumer level. There is a whole world of pro range sound cards available. Mostly what it comes down to is what do you care to spend.

 

[Manitoulin]

The most popular company in Sound Blaster.

They make some good cards. Unfortunately, if you have front mounted audio connectors on your PC, once you go from the on-board to an external sound card, the jacks are useless, in most cases.

You can get some higher level cards with front mounted audio connector capability.

 

[kenhappen2u]

all great ideas .. but i think i want to keep it as simple and cost effective as i can ....im thinking i would like to go with a internal pci card . i just dont know what to look for and i want to make sure its an upgrade from my current onboard sound card . is there any feature or some must have specs?? thanks again and keep the comments commin

 

[Dusty Chalk]

24/96 is what the soundcard is capable of -- 24 bits/96kHz. Only matters if you're going to listen to something higher resolution than CD. All redbook CD's and most MP3 players will never go above 16/44.1. Even DVD's rarely go above that (maybe 16/48), and besides, they need decoding 99% of the time.

There are "plugins" in, for example, WinAmp, Foobar, etc. that will "upsample" your CD's to 24/96, and then you will need a soundcard capable of 24/96 or higher. Other than that and the potential to listen to higher resolution source material, (higher res .wavs, DAD's, etc.), I wouldn't worry about it.

64k/s (kilobits per second) is the data stream rate of compressed audio data. It's basically the same number that's being told to you when you compress audio files to mp3. That's actually pretty low, so you shouldn't need particularly much more capability of your soundcard to handle that.

 

[Spinakerr]

Hello all - I'm currently in the process of buying a sound card, after about a year of deliberation and comparisons (actually finding friends of friends etc that have the cards). personally, I have decided on a Terratec card that is actually out of production but offers everthing I need. See one here: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....50040339209&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1

But this has a lot of features for my music recording other software.

A good site I used that lists in depth specs and clear layout of current manufacturers, types is Dolphin Music. Its a UK site but all the models are there. For an internal card I have heard this M-Audio one: http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/1142
and was very impressed, especially with its interaction with the various hi fi it was used with. Note the phono outs and ins!

Hope that site helps and good hunting!

 

[uofmtiger]

I don't own one, but the Chaintech AV710 gets rave reviews and it cheap (less than $30 at Newegg). With digital files that are compressed, you may want to look into adding an AR TDS 202. They usually cost less than $20 including shipping on eBay. I love the way it gives compressed music a fuller sound with more punch.

You could also look into feeding the digital out on the Chaintech into an Entech Number Cruncher DAC (around $50 on eBay). I am going to use a similar setup in my bedroom system, but I have not had the Entech long enough (just got it today) to comment on its performance just yet.

 

[dewdude]

wow...i'm not even going to touch the TDS 202's... *looks at his Sennheiser headphones and shakes his head*

Spinakerr: i'm an audio engineer..i do a lot of vinyl to CD transfers. get yourself an X-Fi..i'll tell you why. I look at the specs and the actual card itself seems on par with the X-Fi...the only difference is that breakout box vs the one on the X-Fi...it doesn't offer the RCA line-out or phono-in..but it does have line level RCA inputs, the MIDI in/out's are mini-DIN..but i believe it comes with an adapter..i'd have to find my box. the price tag is a bit steep tho..it does feature the same I/O interfaces supported by most audio software. I myself use Adobe Audition and it uses the ASIO quite nicely.

 

[uofmtiger]

wow...i'm not even going to touch the TDS 202's... *looks at his Sennheiser headphones and shakes his head*

???

here is a review of the chaintech.

 

[Fisherdude]

I think the most important question you need to answer is what is the source of the music you play from your computer? You mentioned MP3's. If these are the "normal" quality of 64 or 128 kbps, your sound card can already handle that data stream just fine. A higher-end sound card isn't going to make much of a difference.

If you're going to use your PC to play music from a CD that you put in the PC's CD player, or you have uncompressed files on your hard drive, and then run a line-out connection to your amp, that's an entirely different situation, and then a quality sound card will make a huge difference.

 

[mpholland]

If you plan on a lot of recording or mixing and have need of all the software and ports, then i would agree with dewdude and get a soundblaster X-Fi. If all you want to do is listen to your mp3's then I would just get a decent PCI soundcard. Any of the above mentioned will work, I myself use a Soundblaster Audigy. Basically your biggest benefit from stepping away from your onboard audio will be eliminating electrical interference generated from your motherboard, fans, etc. inside your computer case. I also find 128k to be the sweet spot for my ears on most audio compression forms, though some do sound ok at 64k. Any of the cards mentioned so far will also sound good in wav format which is cd quality. Another reason I like Creative Sounblaster is that they have cards that are easily equal to the one you are contemplating in both features and price, plus they are still making them and will continue to offer support in the future. I find buying PC stuff that is already obsolete or no longer made is pretty risky.

 

[dew042]

The only reason to get any Sound Blaster is for game support. As far as music quality there is always a better option in respect to quality and value.

As mentioned a few times the Chaintech AV-710 is a real bargain. It does optical well, and it can put out stereo well if you use output 10 with the Wolfson WM8728 24/192 DAC that is quite good. If you are experienced only in onboard sound -- this one will knock your socks off, trust me. Newegg carries this for $25ish.

If you want a better HTPC card I'd suggest the M-Audio Revo 5.1. Basically a better designed version of the Chaintech card above with higher quality DACs and better software and drivers. JR.com carries this for about $60.

dew.

dew.

 

[dewdude]

actually...the X-Fi card is the first one creative did proeprly..and side by side with my Revo, it's on par. it's got good DAC's in it and Creative FINALLY ditched the AC'97 codecs after the Audigy 2 ZS going with the I2S on everything.

the problem with creative cards prior to the X-Fi was the resampling issue. since both the audigy and audigy 2's DSP processors ran at 48khz..it had to resample anything not 48khz up to 48khz for DSP...and the method used on the hardware was a horrible one, resulting in intermodulation distortion. the good news is, anyone out there using an audigy or audigy 2 can obtain plugins for winamp that'll resample the music using higher quality SSRC code, and it affected cards as early as the Live! series I believe. So you've got people out there using creative cards and not knowing how to take full advantage of them..that's why a lot of music fans didn't like them

and the TDS-202...comon man..it's a SINGLE speaker for starters..and it's a pssive system...all the advantages they claim it gives music can be obtained with either a good EQ, or a good multi-band compressor. i don't care if it sounds like stereo...you're not going to convince me 1 speaker is going to give you pheonomal stereo sound...plus..you gotta think from a purist's point of view...if the mastering engineer wanted the high end of the sound to be really loud, they would of made it loud...with mp3's you're basically trying to amplify what isn't there (for lower quality encodes)..i just don't understand it....maybe i'm just a bit more of a purist than the rest of you tho.

 

[uofmtiger]

and the TDS-202...comon man..it's a SINGLE speaker for starters..and it's a pssive system...all the advantages they claim it gives music can be obtained with either a good EQ, or a good multi-band compressor. i don't care if it sounds like stereo...you're not going to convince me 1 speaker is going to give you pheonomal stereo sound...plus..you gotta think from a purist's point of view...if the mastering engineer wanted the high end of the sound to be really loud, they would of made it loud...with mp3's you're basically trying to amplify what isn't there (for lower quality encodes)..i just don't understand it....maybe i'm just a bit more of a purist than the rest of you tho.

First, I got the AR TDS 202 for less than $15 with shipping and two decent sets of stereo cables included. What decent EQ or multi-band compressor can I get for anywhere near that price with shipping?

Secondly, it is not a typical speaker, regardless of the description. It is a sound enhancer that they are calling a speaker. It sits between the source and an amplifier. Also, why is "passive" a reason not to like it?

Michael Fremer of Stereophile loved the technology:

"With TDS, the sound was uniformly richer, yet with greater detail. Instruments seemed to sound more like what they sound like, with better separation. I liked what TDS did in my system." Concludes Fremer, "I'll use it." http://www.audioadvisor.com/sitemap/TDS202.html

I also sent a TDS 202 to one of my buddies (Russkish), who was a skeptic. He was as much of a purist as anyone on this site. I wanted another TDS and told him I would buy it from him if he did not like it. He took me up on it and he loved it...combined with the T-amp I also sold him on.

.with mp3's you're basically trying to amplify what isn't there (for lower quality encodes)..i just don't understand it

No, actually you are trying to make what is there sound better. That is exactly what I try to get from audio.

A true purist would only listen to live music in a perfect setting. Anything other than that is a compromise. The idea of the TDS 202 is to make less compromises and in this case we are talking about mp3s and 64kbps signals coming from XM. The best you can do is try to make it sound better and I think the TDS does that.

There are several posts on this site related to the little gizmo. Most are in T-amp threads, but here is one of its very own:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40990&highlight=tds202

Is it the greatest product for sound on Earth? No! But does it make mp3s and other compressed sources sound better? I think so.

 

[JimmyNeutron]

Derek is correct on all counts. But to go back to the original question about PC soundcards. If all you will be listening to is MP3's, XM online, etc then most any "good quality" soundcard will be just fine - certainly better than what is on your current motherboard. You have to understand that MP3's are not full-range recordings, they are compressed recordings, and as such they will NOT diliver the quality of sound that a CD does. Also consider what you will be connecting your PC to - a real stereo system with big full-range speakers?, or desktop PC speakers? If desktop PC speakers then not much in improvement will be gained. So now the real question is what soundcard can you use that can help "improve the sound" of your MP3 collection? Most all external soundcards will come with programs that will "re-equalize" the MP3's to make them sound fuller, clearer, etc (this is NOT putting info back into the MP3, just using re-equalization to make them sound better). I have always owned Soundblaster cards, and they have been more than fine. Say what you will about them but they have universal acceptance by all software/hardware for compatibility. The newer line of X-Fi cards are a completely new breed of soundcards that you can't compare with their previous versions. These are true audiophile quality cards. But for MP3's they just cannot be beat. Their software has many, many settings to help enhance compressed music to make them sound better (re-equing). Whether you connect your computer to desktop speakers, headphones, or a full blown top o' the line home stereo system, the X-Fi line of cards will make your music sing like no other. Give the card a listen, try the included bundled software, and compare the difference to your motherboard's sound. They may be a bit pricey, but they are sooooo well worth it.

Jimmy

 

[dewdude]

i'm sorry, i live on the theory garbage in, garbage out.

mp3's don't benefit from additional processing...it only appears to. the problem is the avearage consumer is quite happy with this overprocessed sound. I personally dislike it. You paid $15 for your TDS with cables...I paid $15 for my Sansui EQ at a yard sale...do I even use it...no, I'm a purist, I leave my tone controls completely flat...(there are purists who can accept non-live music you know) the 64kbps signals from XM are crap and shouldn't be listened to anyway....spectral band replication is an iffy technology..and when you AMPLIFY a band regenerated from SBR, like with XM..i'm sorry, I leave the room. It's a crime against good pure audio.

I don't see the TDS as way to make less compromises...it's just extra processing I personally don't want or need. I'll never buy it.

 

[dewdude]

about the x-fi..since the sound card is a seperate thing..

it DOES have a lot of additional processing for the sound..in fact, the 24-bit Crystalizer would be described as TDS like..i just call it audio-MSG.

You do have the option of completely turning off the DSP and running the card in bit-perfect mode, which is how I leave mine. My master sampling rate usually set at 44.1 so there's no reasmpling at all involved.

As far as music files....i avoid mp3 like a plague. ogg is acceptable over 400kbps, Musepack is good if you use the -braindead setting..i generally use FLAC or APE.

 

[uofmtiger]

You paid $15 for your TDS with cables...I paid $15 for my Sansui EQ at a yard sale...

Well, I was not talking about used merchandise. I know there are guys that claim to buy extremely expensive items used at yard sales. Since I do not have time for yard sales, I live with stuff new or via eBay. If I went to yard sales, it would eat into the cost with gas and time spent.

Garbage in/garbage out is true. I have no argument and I would recommend FLAC or other lossless formats before recommending compressed music of any kind. Unfortunately, many of us like XM radio or other sources that used compression techniques to deliver the sound. Therefore, I do what I can to make the sound better.

In reality, most CDs have clipping and other problems associated with laying down the tracks on a medium that has a limited range. My point is that a purist would probably limit their CD use and go with a format without such limitations.... Like I said, live music in a perfect setting is the only way for the true purist. The rest make the best of our sources, whether it is mp3 or XM.

 

[dewdude]

ok, but there's a huge majority of people that aren't that TRUE of a purist.

CD's have a wonderful dynamic range...IF you know how to master them properly. The problem is, the majority of the consumers have NO clue about good sound..which is why there's so much crap on the market. The majority of CD's (and I'm pretty sure I'm safe when I say..all) recorded today, or even remastered today for the consumer market have much less dynamic range than a CD could, why? Because in today's music world, it's not about quality. Ohh no...the average consumer wouldn't know a decent high quality system if it bit them in the ear...they know two things...volume and bass; so most CD's have the dynamics compressed so the overall volume of a CD is louder. On top of that..they then hard limit the music to where just enough samples clip to not produce any audible clipping. This is why the majorty of CD's have a limited range. So, you're only half right on saying CD is a limited medium, it's much less limited than you'd imageine. Listen to a high quality MFSL (MoFi) or DCC (the label, not the format) release and THEN tell me CD's sound bad (although you're likely to say it's not loud enough)...if you REALLY wanna hear me stir something up...CD's theoritically have more dynamic range than a vinyl record...however it doesn't have the frequency response (at least till you play a LP about 40 times)

However, 16 bit DOES have it's limitations and we're slowly moving to things like 24-bit...which, regardless of what people tell you, is not an actual buzzword, it's just the industry has turned it into one. This is why formats like DVD-Audio need to pick up and start running..but unfortinually the consumers prefer thier CD's, and with reason, with 24 years under it's belt it's become the standard format of choice..it's just sad no one actually cares enough to make them sound right.

As far as live music..i HATE concerts. Concerts are loud..usually way too loud...and the more dB you pump into your ears, the more dB you shave off from your sensitivity. Yes, a true purist would love live music, but, who has the time..or the money, to go see live venues all the time. I don't. I make due with my recorded music formats, and the same for a lot of audiophiles who hate going deaf from merely going to a concert..I like my hearing and I don't plan on losing it by voulantarly going into an place where i have no volume control...and ear plugs..ohh...not at a BlueCheer concert my friend, that band rocks so hard and loud my ears still rang for hours despite the plugs....there goes 5db right there

As far as yard sales, I'm sorry you think about it that way. Maybe if you took ALLL the money you spent in shipping and handling charges you'd find out if you stopped at yard sale or thrift store once in a while when you're "going by", you might be surprised at what you find? I don't have time to go to yard sales anymore either..I work all weekend, every weekend, I buy at thrift stores or off craigslist. I don't buy off Ebay becuase I will not deal with a person that's not local, and there's too many ways of getting ripped off.

Yes, a lot of people like XM, even I have to say it's the lesser of the three digtal radio evils. But, still, it's highly compressed (dynamically and physcoacoustically) 22khz signal that's expanded into 44khz, that's not something you through an audio processor boosting levels and think it sounds great....then you're part of the average consumer group of people. Personally, I'll leave it in the car where having the windows down adds enough noise to make it not noticable.

With that being said, I also happen to like audio tape.