Heresy II---- where's the bass??

[krimney]

Enjoying a saturday afternoon doing some A/B comparison between my ADS L880 and a set of Klipsch Heresy. Like night and day when it comes to bass.. Switch from the heresy to the ADS and you'd think there was a sub added, even the cat runs. The ADS have WAY more bass from the 10" than the Klipsch 12", I tried jacking the loudness up. no improvement.

Using a philips 5781 with 200wpc and a Toshiba DVD, basic C! pre.

 

[Dan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ]

Effiencey vs bandwidth is the tradeoff on the Heresy's. The Heresy's only make it to about 60Hz but are highly effiencent. The drivers could have been designed to have more extension on the bottom end for that size enclosure, but the results would have been less effiencey. Remember, those were designed back in the days of low wattage amplifiers.

 

[krimney]

makes sencse

They do play louder at the same volume setting than the ADS. They would be a great party speaker and they kind of have that "commercail" sound you might hear in a bar. IMHO the ADS are a little smoother sounding and "easier" to listen to.

Thats the fun of this hobby, playing around to see what "works" and what doesn't. gues the Klipsch will be a seller and for now the ADS a keeper.

 

[Dan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ]

All Heresy's have a sharp spike around 9kHz. This can be remedied thru a modification to the crossover network. Don't know why Klipsch never addressed the problem, but I think you'll find it addressed by doing a search in the High Efficiency Forum @ Audio Asylum. With some tweaking, they can be great speakers. Add a good sealed active subwoofer to the mix and you have the makings for a great LOUD system!

 

[Toasted Almond]

I find that almost any well designed acoustic suspension speaker, is ultimately more LISTENABLE than a lot of other things.

I don't buy the Klipsch's being designed when amp power was a concern. Maybe the original Klipsch Horns, but not those others with active 10" and passive 12". Those showed up in the 80's. No shortage of amp power by that time.

I too would be selling those, and keeping the ADS. I picked up a pair of ADS L730's about two months ago, and they are fantastic speakers. Probably get loud as hell with a 60 watt amp. Probably designed right around when those Klipsch's were designed. No comparison anywhere, not just in the deep bass.

Somebody wants to tell me that those Klipsch's, or Pioneer CS-99's, or any kind of Sansui thing, is a great ROCK speaker, then you probably won't hear much from me. But to compare them to truly fantastic loudspeakers that do every type of music justice is debateable.

Give me the big original AR's, Advent's, ADS's, ADC's, and KLH's all day long. I've got plenty of amps that do those speakers justice.



Toasted Almond

 

[Dan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ]

The Heresy's were designed a long time ago T.A. The Series II models aren't much different than the original models.

 

[danj]

The Heresy model first showed up sometime around 1969, back when a "real" 20 watt amp was on the upper end of the affordable power range.

They were called "Heresy" because they were designed contrary to the (then) prevelant Klipsch design philosphy. They were basically the first "conventional" design to come from the Klipsch factory.

Remember, by 1969 Klipsch had been making speakers for years. The Klipschorn made its first appearance in the 50s and the LaScala and a few other models by about 1964. The Heresy was around for many years, in various incarnations at least until the late 1980s.

 

[Thatch_Ear]

Twas not the Heresey designed for use with a larger speaker to augment the sound of the larger?
I thought the ones I had were the real cat's ass back when and that was with BPC Sony. The illusion was shattered when they were A/Bd with a pair of Shahinian Obelisks using a Dyna ST-70.

 

[GordonW]

Yep. Actually the Heresy showed up quite a bit earlier than 1969, AFAIK, as a center channel for a 3-channel-stereo setup, to go between two Klipschorns. IIRC, it was late '50s... back then, 15 watts was a BIG DEAL!

And actually, the Klipschorn showed up in the late '40s. I've actually seen a 1949 model!

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[lynnm]

The Heresy was first introduced in 1957. The klipschorn was first offered in 1946 and has been in continuous production ( with the exception of a 2 +/- year gap between 1991-1993 ) ever since.

The Heresy name came as the result of a conversation Paul Klipsch had with a clergyman/audio enthusiast over coffee one day. PWK mentioned that he had developed a small speaker that was aimed at being used as a centre speaker for a stereo setup using a pair of Khorns and the new speaker being driven by a signal derived from the left and right channels. PWK also mentioned that the bass driver would not be horn loaded in order to reduce size. The clergyman looked at PWK in suprise and said that would almost be a Heresy !

That is how the Heresy got its name.

Krimney

I have been thinking about the lack of bass you reported when we got together last week and I wonder if perhaps there is an air leak in the cabinet(s) ? The Heresy while not a true acoustic suspension speaker does in fact rely on back pressure for the best overall bass response. I recall one poster on the Klipsch forum who reported that his new - found heresys were lacking in bass and in the to and fro of discussion it developed that mounting holes had been drilled into the cabinets at some point. Another member suggested filling those holes and the fellow reported back saying that the difference was beyond description. Worth checking.

 

[Toasted Almond]

So they had about thirty years to try and refine the sound of them.

Toasted Almond

 

[lynnm]

To each his own TA.

You like Acoustic Suspension speakers ---- by all means use them.

 

[danj]

Originally posted by GordonW
Yep. Actually the Heresy showed up quite a bit earlier than 1969, AFAIK, as a center channel for a 3-channel-stereo setup, to go between two Klipschorns. IIRC, it was late '50s... back then, 15 watts was a BIG DEAL!

And actually, the Klipschorn showed up in the late '40s. I've actually seen a 1949 model!

Regards,
Gordon.

I went into my archives and found out I was about 10 years off! Perish the thought! Thanks for setting me straight plus giving me an excuse to get lost in my past - wondering why in hell I kept some of the things I found in there!

 

[GordonW]

Well, one theory on the lack of bass on a Heresy, at least an early model (before the mid '70s):

Many of those speakers, were designed to work on TUBE amps, with output transformers, and therefore a relatively HIGH output impedence (ie, low damping factor).

Many of the Klipsch (as well as many JBL and such) speakers of the day, were DESIGNED to work on such amps. In these, the SPEAKERS THEMSELVES were expected to provide the damping they needed... and if you check, MANY of the drivers of the day, were VERY "overdamped" by today's standards... huge magnets, very low Q factors, in the Theile-Small parlance.

Typically, a speaker system will be designed with a Qtc (if you sealed the box) of between .5 and 1.0 . This will result in a relatively flat bass response, with a minimum of ripple. Now, if you take a low-Q speaker, and hook it up to a very damped amp (ie, solid-state modern amp, damping factor of 100 or more is typical), you get a combo that is VERY overdamped in the bass (Q of .4 or lower, many times!)... the bass will start to roll off VERY early, sometimes as early as 80-100 Hz! OTOH, hook the same speaker to a TUBE amp of the era (which would typically, had a damping factor of between 1 and 10), and the bottom end "fattens right up"... the damping is restored to a NORMAL range (total Q of between .5 and .8 usually), and VOILA! BASS! The rolloff is "propped up" to the mid-40s and below, usually!

This same effect is noted with vented boxes too... the effect will be similar in audible effect. While there may be low bass there, it'll usually sound "thin" and "anemic" on a modern amp, while nice and "fat" and "full" on a tube amp.

This is why, it's a GOOD IDEA to use vintage amps with vintage speakers. I just got through restoring a Magnavox AMP185 (6V6 outputs), that while sounds GREAT through modern speakers... the lower damping factor, and the probability that it was actually designed with a little "tip up" in the very lowest bottom end to compensate for the speakers of the day, in open baffle, makes it just a little extra"fat" in the bass on speakers made for use with modern SS amps. OTOH, I can't WAIT to hook it up to my JBL Viscount C36 cabinets loaded with Goodmans Axiom 301 woofers (whenever I can actually GET the recone kits for the woofers! Waiting sucks@&^$#&^$!!)... THAT should be JUST the kind of combo that will SING with this amp. Very efficient speaker (98 dB sensitivity... makes great use of the 15 watts), with a self-damped woofer, that should be nearly ruler-flat on this amp, to some very low frequencies...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[bully]

Good exposition, Gordon. Damping factor is often misunderstood and overlooked as to the match between speaker system and amp. Bold Eagle (a nonposting member, but active at AA) stresses the matching in damping factor.

 

[Thatch_Ear]

I never noticed a lack of bass, in fact I could make the carpet flap. And they are acoustic suspension. And I liked mine so much I went looking for a second pair and ended up buying speakers with an 8" woof, a folded triangular transmission line and back firing 12" passive radiators. Sealed but not exactly acoutic suspension, and with a mutli directional reflective sound that works, and works well.
The old Heresys with the EV-35 tweeters are very good speakers and they performed the way they were designed to. I don't know that I have ever listened to any Heresy IIs.