High Compliance Cartridge

[smokinone]

I just got a Luxman PD 277 and looking for a cartridge. I have been entertaining the AT150mlx, AT440Mlb, Shure M97, possibly Grado Red, or Ortofon OM 30, and recently have seen an Othello by Soundsmith. I don't see a lot of information on the Othello but it looks interesting.
A lot of choices I now, but I haven't the expertise of the Audiokarma group. These are all I believe high compliance, and I listen to mostly 70's rock, but do like the Benny Goodman and swing era as well.
I would be at the top of my budget, maybe a little over with the Othello and AT150mlx, but might be able to sneak it by.
I know there has been some thought on this recently, but I think I've thrown in some contenders that weren't previously mentioned
Thanks

 

[pmdclassics]

I have both the AT150mlx and the AT440Mlb and both are outstanding. I will say this the AT cartridges are longer than most other cartridges and depending on your headshell it might be a tight fit.

 

[Ken Boyd]

What is important is that you pick the correct cart to arm to meet the correct compliance. If you have a tone arm whos effective mass is below say 10 grams it needs to have, in most cases a high compliance cart. And for a mid mass or a heavier weight arm you need a low compliance cart. So you just need to find out what the effective mass is of your tonearm, and then shop for a cart from the choices that fall into the correct compliance range.

 

[marcmorin]

I just got a Luxman PD 277 and looking for a cartridge. I have been entertaining the AT150mlx, AT440Mlb, Shure M97, possibly Grado Red, or Ortofon OM 30, and recently have seen an Othello by Soundsmith. I don't see a lot of information on the Othello but it looks interesting.
A lot of choices I now, but I haven't the expertise of the Audiokarma group. These are all I believe high compliance, and I listen to mostly 70's rock, but do like the Benny Goodman and swing era as well.
I would be at the top of my budget, maybe a little over with the Othello and AT150mlx, but might be able to sneak it by.
I know there has been some thought on this recently, but I think I've thrown in some contenders that weren't previously mentioned
Thanks

consensus on music genre is the Grado is a bit soft in the bite for "Rock" and excels in Jazz/Big band/Acoustic. The Othello is a re-issue/reincarnation of the BO cartridge which is/was a very nice cart.
It's going to be more "akin" to the Grado sound than the AT sound, however with a bit more in the top end than the Red. MHO only <~~~<< the M97xE is the "shrug" in what you list, as I would take any/all in your list over it.

 

[patient_ot]

Keep in mind that both the AT440 and AT150 are discontinued. You may still find them for sale but if not you'll have to look at the new models - e.g. the VM540ML, VM750SH, and VM760SLC.

I will say that AT carts need to be loading correctly to sound their best and you may find they benefit from parallel resistive loading as well. If your phono stage has more than 100pf or so of capacitance built into it, I would probably choose a different brand of cartridge unless you want to get a new phono stage or break out the soldering iron.

 

[smokinone]

What is important is that you pick the correct cart to arm to meet the correct compliance. If you have a tone arm whos effective mass is below say 10 grams it needs to have, in most cases a high compliance cart. And for a mid mass or a heavier weight arm you need a low compliance cart. So you just need to find out what the effective mass is of your tonearm, and then shop for a cart from the choices that fall into the correct compliance range.

According to member jimreeves, he used "luckydogs EM spreadsheet" and came up with 9.5 grams effective mass. This stuff really confuses me but I'm trying to put it all together.

 

[smokinone]

Keep in mind that both the AT440 and AT150 are discontinued. You may still find them for sale but if not you'll have to look at the new models - e.g. the VM540ML, VM750SH, and VM760SLC.

I will say that AT carts need to be loading correctly to sound their best and you may find they benefit from parallel resistive loading as well. If your phono stage has more than 100pf or so of capacitance built into it, I would probably choose a different brand of cartridge unless you want to get a new phono stage or break out the soldering iron.

I will be hooking the PD 277 up to my Luxman R1050 receiver. I don't really know what the capacitance of the phono stage would be. I don't see anything in the service manual that relates to that figure. I have a 440Mlb, and a Denon DL110 but the Denon, I think I read, would not be compatible with the tonearm. I also have an AT3100 (JVC200 actually), but I'm not sure where that cart lies in the compliance area. It was on the JVC QL-y66 before I put the Denon DL110 on it.

 

[patient_ot]

I will be hooking the PD 277 up to my Luxman R1050 receiver. I don't really know what the capacitance of the phono stage would be. I don't see anything in the service manual that relates to that figure. I have a 440Mlb, and a Denon DL110 but the Denon, I think I read, would not be compatible with the tonearm. I also have an AT3100 (JVC200 actually), but I'm not sure where that cart lies in the compliance area. It was on the JVC QL-y66 before I put the Denon DL110 on it.

Does the 440mlb sound okay to with that receiver? I would try to get the capacitance spec somehow, but I'm not sure how you would do that if the manual doesn't have the figure (short of opening up the hood and measuring it with a capacitance meter).

Trying to figure out the true compliance of the DL110 is difficult because they use the Japanese method at 100hz rather than the more common Western method at 10hz.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Most MC carts are not high compliance they like a tone arm with a little mass. I do have a Sony MC cart that is well suited, the XL-MC1.

 

[marcmorin]

Does the 440mlb sound okay to with that receiver? I would try to get the capacitance spec somehow, but I'm not sure how you would do that if the manual doesn't have the figure (short of opening up the hood and measuring it with a capacitance meter).

Trying to figure out the true compliance of the DL110 is difficult because they use the Japanese method at 100hz rather than the more common Western method at 10hz.

multiply the 100hz compliance figure by 1.7 to get a very close approximation at 10hz. I have run the DL 110 in 10-12gr arms with out any compliance (RF) issues.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Deep enough pockets the Van Den Hul Grasshopper with a static compliance of 35 might be a bit too compliant, but if wanting a MC cartridge they are out there. I know the Needle Doc used to have them but don't see them listed anymore. Maybe a bit over the top but it's nice to know what's available.

 

[DavidTT]

I'd try the DL-110 and the AT440MLB on the tonearm and see how they sound through your equipment. You have them, so assuming you know how to mount and set up cartridges, it should be easy enough to see how they work and go from there. Once you hear how they each sound through your equipment, you'll be better equipped to seek whatever sound you'll prefer. Who knows, you may find one of them is delightful with no need for further search.

 

[patient_ot]

multiply the 100hz compliance figure by 1.7 to get a very close approximation at 10hz. I have run the DL 110 in 10-12gr arms with out any compliance (RF) issues.

I've seen those approximation figures - some people use different multipliers. Is 1.7 very close? I've often wondered how the DL-110 would fare on my 11g Yamaha arm. Might be better on my 21g JVC arm though.

 

[ETI_5000]

From the service manual schematic, the capacitance load of the Luxman R1050 receiver phono stage appears to be 33pF (C402a, b). That should work well with all AT MM cartridges, unless you have turntable output leads of much more than 170pF.

The DL-110 should be an OK match for the PD-277 tonearm, with its 1.8g tracking force, as will many cartridges tracking at similar or lower tracking forces.

 

[marcmorin]

I've seen those approximation figures - some people use different multipliers. Is 1.7 very close? I've often wondered how the DL-110 would fare on my 11g Yamaha arm. Might be better on my 21g JVC arm though.

The Denon carts, for the most part are medium to high compliance, A 103 might prefer the 21gr arm, but the 110 won't. In the arm I listed, resonate frequency via Shure Era lV test album was low moderate at 8hz, same as I get from most Shure carts. The 1.7 is a pretty close value. close enough for gub'ment work.

 

[patient_ot]

The Denon carts, for the most part are medium to high compliance, A 103 might prefer the 21gr arm, but the 110 won't. In the arm I listed, resonate frequency via Shure Era lV test album was low moderate at 8hz, same as I get from most Shure carts. The 1.7 is a pretty close value. close enough for gub'ment work.

Yeah, sounds like the 110 is too high compliance to work with the JVC. I need one of those Shure test records.

 

[smokinone]

Does the 440mlb sound okay to with that receiver? I would try to get the capacitance spec somehow, but I'm not sure how you would do that if the manual doesn't have the figure (short of opening up the hood and measuring it with a capacitance meter).

Trying to figure out the true compliance of the DL110 is difficult because they use the Japanese method at 100hz rather than the more common Western method at 10hz.

I have not tried it yet with the R1050, I had been doing some receiver swaps before I settled on the Luxman R1050. I have the 440 on a Denon DP45F turntable now that has had limited play, just used it to transfer from vinyl to digital, experimenting a little bit. I played that through my computer so I don't know what it would sound like with my current setup.
I will remove it from the Denon and mount it up on the PD277 and check it out. I still have to open up the PD277 and clean and lube if necessary, that will come on my day off.
It has a AT Precept 220XE mounted with only one screw now, and I haven't looked at the stylus to see if it's decent enough to be used. It's just kind of hanging from one side. I'll swap it with the 440 as I know it's new...ish, and see how that goes.
Thanks

 

[smokinone]

Most MC carts are not high compliance they like a tone arm with a little mass. I do have a Sony MC cart that is well suited, the XL-MC1.

Isn't that Sony in need of a step up transformer though? I do like the look of that XL-MC1 though.

Thanks

 

[Balifly]

and a Denon DL110 but the Denon, I think I read, would not be compatible with the tonearm. I also have an AT3100 (JVC200 actually), but I'm not sure where that cart lies in the compliance area. It was on the JVC QL-y66 before I put the Denon DL110 on it.

FYI,

The Denon DL 110 has a compliance of 8 x 10-6 and the Audio Technica AT 3100 has similar 8.5 x 10-6 (( Japanese type measurement ).

My Luxman DP-277 came with a similar Audio Technica AT 30 E on it - 8.5 x 10-6.

Also presently using a Sansui XP-99 with the Audio Technica AT 3100E on it.

Using both Audio Technica lomc with the original matched SUT Audio Tehcnica AT 630.

 

[smokinone]

FYI,

The Denon DL 110 has a compliance of 8 x 10-6 and the Audio Technica AT 3100 has similar 8.5 x 10-6 (( Japanese type measurement ).

My Luxman DP-277 came with a similar Audio Technica AT 30 E on it - 8.5 x 10-6.

Also presently using a Sansui XP-99 with the Audio Technica AT 3100E on it.

Using both Audio Technica lomc with the original matched SUT Audio Tehcnica AT 630.

I am currently replacing the electrolytic caps in my XP-99, but it had a Sansui SC-50 on it when I got it. But, the good news from what I am reading is that the Denon, or the AT3100E should work fine in the PD277?
I went to the Vinyl Engine Cartridge database and had a look at the information there, first time I've looked at it, but they had the AT3100E at 7.5 x 10-6 with 7g mass, and the Denon spot on with your number @ 4.8g mass. The AT30E is listed with 8 x 10-6 with 9g mass. I'm not sure what all that means, but they all could work with the PD277 from what I gather.
I am not doubting your numbers Balifly, it all mumbo jumbo to me at this point, just used the VE as a kind of reference. They all seem really close in numbers.

The AT440 specs out at 10 x 10-6 @ 6.5g mass and the 150mlx 10 x 10-6 @ 8.3g mass.
This is all too confusing, is the first number in the compliance figure give the high or low figure? 10 x 10-6 is higher compliance than 8 x 10-6? And the cartridge mass figure then the weight of the cartridge alone? Then possibly adding 3.2 grams of weight to the Denon brings it to the specs of the AT30E that originally came with the TT?

Thanks.