Hodge Podge System Not working for Me!

[sfseay]

Good gear, bad room, tune, or ears ...

First step in ANY of this sort of thing is, read the book. Some speakers have very particular needs for proper placement and response.

Next step, tune the room. Get a copy of Room EQ Wizard loaded up on a laptop and see exactly what you're starting with. You'll need a calibrated microphone to do that, but Dayton now has a simple plug 'n play USB version of their famous EMM6 that takes the work out of setup. An SPL meter (there's an app for that you can load up on a smart phone) then a couple basic calibrations to the software and you're up and running. Run a few one click frequency sweeps to get an audio picture of the room and go from there.

Last step, figure out a way to implement any changes you need to do to get the room "right". What you need will depend on what all's going on, but I expect some room treatments would be best. Then again, the wife factor might get in the way of that, so a software solution might be best. In either case, it's a one time process as long as you don't make any major changes to the system or room.

PS ... if you want to take the easy way out, and with what you've already invested in the system, might want to look into an automatic eq solution. Audyssey and dbx have some nice gear that can work wonders with little effort.

Can't help you on the bad ears thing ... <G>

First I want to thank everyone for the helpful advice. These aren't the first speakers I have had in this room though, just the most expensive. I have been using some KEF LS50s, and some Matin Logan Aerius i's in the same room. The KEFs were used with a sub and the MLs weren't used with a sub. The MLs put out a lot more bass than the WA Sophia's. I realize the Sophia's are very picky about proper placement. The manual that came with the speakers goes into excruciating detail about how moving the speakers less than an inch can have an impact on sound. Also I realize room acoustics are as important to great sound as your source material. Having said all that I wonder if I'll ever know when/if the Sophia's are placed properly and giving the best sound. If you buy any Wilson Audio speaker new someone will come to your home and set them up and I was told by a dealer this setup can take 2-4 hours or more.

If the Sophias are that sensitive to room acoustics and placement perhaps I need to look at other speaker options that are more forgiving.

I will look into all the advice given in this thread, however the talk about a disconnected subwoofer in the same room as two front speakers having an impact on bass, I take that with a grain of salt. If the Sophias are pushing enough air to noticeably move A 15" woofer cone that is 14' away, I would definitely hear and feel a lot of bass. I will write that advice off as audiophile folk lore. I have been wrong before, but I don't believe everything I hear or I'm told.

If you want to come to Sarasota Florida for a beach vacation and buy or make a trade for a pair of WIlson Audio Sophias let me know...;-)

 

[cube-tube]

I will look into all the advice given in this thread, however the talk about a disconnected subwoofer in the same room as two front speakers having an impact on bass, I take that with a grain of salt. If the Sophias are pushing enough air to noticeably move A 15" woofer cone that is 14' away, I would definitely hear and feel a lot of bass. I will write that advice off as audiophile folk lore. I have been wrong before, but I don't believe everything I hear or I'm told.

If you want to come to Sarasota Florida for a beach vacation and buy or make a trade for a pair of WIlson Audio Sophias let me know...;-)

Like I said, I've never really noticed a difference with or without an unused sub (or other speakers in the room) effecting bass in my systems, just that I have read where others claim to have. It's a theory or myth that's been around for ages.

I doubt you would do an even trade of my Martin Logan SL3's for your Wilson Audio Sophia 2's. Then again, I'm not too sure I would do such a trade as these SL3's are mighty fine sounding speakers and I feel are rather hard to beat, especially after being vertically bi-amped now as of just last night.

 

[sKiZo]

I realize the Sophia's are very picky about proper placement. The manual that came with the speakers goes into excruciating detail about how moving the speakers less than an inch can have an impact on sound.

You want picky, try Carver holography. My "sweet spot" is measured in millimeters. <G>

If you buy any Wilson Audio speaker new someone will come to your hope and set them up and I was told by a dealer this setup can take 2-4 hours or more.

I suppose you could get hold of a dealer in your area and see what they'd charge to voice your room. Then again, nearest dealer is probably hours away, so you're looking at a day job. That can add up to quite a chunk of change.

I will look into all the advice given in this thread, however the talk about a disconnected subwoofer in the same room as two front speakers having an impact on bass, I take that with a grain of salt.

GoooooOOoooogle "distributed bass". You may not be able to relocate the main speakers to get the desired results, but you can have fun with subs. Hide those in appropriate locations, and using multiple subs means you don't have to drive each as hard to get the same results. Especially useful in a complex listening area with multiple seating locations in use. One sub should be placed convenient to the front channels, as you'll want to feed those through the sub so you can adjust the bass on the Sophia's using the sub's controls.

NOTE: Not sure about the disconnected sub, but passive radiators (which is basically what you end up with) DO react to ambient sound. Wouldn't expect it to be all that noticeable though.

PS ... Keeping in mind that a very narrow bandwidth of specific frequencies can destroy the tightness and definition of the bottom end, I'd still look into the REW thing. Software's free, and a laptop is handy if you don't already have one. That leaves the calibrated mike which sells for less than $100. As far as matching big speakers to small rooms, I've got a set of McIntosh XR16's in what's basically an 8x8 cube here. Definitely boomy when I first got going, but excellent results in the end.

Using a sub-woofer is going to make it more difficult to find the best spot for these fine speakers.

Not necessarily. If you drive the big boxes through the sub, it's built in network will attenuate the problem frequencies and should in fact make placement easier. Get rid of the bass issues, and then you can concentrate on positioning the speakers to maximize the stage and separation.

 

[sfseay]

I have see a lot of improvement by moving some furniture out of the room. We just so happened to get new carpet in the listening room and so everything had to be moved out. I reduced the amount of stuff in the room (file cabinet, desk and computer, extra audio rack) and moved the speakers further apart and further out from the wall. Added some bookshelves to the right wall so I had something to break up the sound. Bass improved and also the imaging is much better. Still will go back and reread the Sophia manual and the Get Better Sound book for more tips.

I still like the sound of electrostats and may look to do a trade for some Martin Logans if the opportunity arises.

 

[Nightwisher]

Amazing gear!

 

[damacman]

First, set the tone controls absolutely flat on your C48. Then, play a well recorded song with excellent bottom end and dynamics at a moderate level - Billie Jean, Another Brick in the Wall Part 2, The Real Me, a Yello track, etc. Walk around the room and take note of the places within the room at which the bass sounds the fullest and the music has the weight and body to it you expect. Sometimes that can be in adjacent room, even. With the caliber of gear you have, undoubtedly you will find several areas in the room at which the bass and fullness is very pleasing. If not, you have something very wrong at the component, cable, or setting level. [if this is the case, you may seek professional set-up help from your dealer.]

My bet is that your listening spot is in one of the many areas of the room where the bass is non-existent given the speakers current location. This is called a null. Jacking the 30Hz slider to max is simply wasting amplifier power attempting to overcome an issue not possible to overcome with equalization. The simplest way to experiment with speaker placement in a case like this is to locate the speakers on one of the walls perpendicular to where they reside at present and move the listening spot accordingly. You may have to try a few spots for the speakers / listening spot to find the best compromise. Follow Wilson's guidelines closely to optimize speaker placement in each location you try as well as distance to the listening spot.

Once you determine the location for the speakers and listening spot that deliver the results you're after, then move the gear and furniture accordingly. Hint: grab 50 to 100 foot of inexpensive 12 or even 14 AWG speaker wire for this exercise and cut it into two equal lengths. This will allow you to move the speakers anywhere you may like and plug them in for a quick listen. Heresy I know, but you can use your nice speaker cables in the final set up.

I learned all of this the hard way three houses ago having spent an entire weekend setting my room up in such a way as to have great sound everywhere except the listening spot.

 

[sfseay]

Just an update. I have tried different combinations of gear since my first post. Rotel RC-1590 integrated amp (returned due to popping noise), Luxman 505u integrated amp (with tone controls), but I had to crank the bass knob to get any reasonable bass out of the Sophias (returned due to failure of Speaker A channel), and now I'm using a PS Audio PCA-2 w/HCPS (no tone controls) and two Auralic Merak mono blocks.

Bottom line...still no real bass! Moved the speakers, moved stuff in the room. Still very low bass output. I still have my small Martin Logans and KEFs, but I like the Wilson sound. I don't know what to do. I will probably look to get another Luxman or integrated amp with tone controls and turn the bass knob to 11 when needed. I have my subwoofer so I will survive!

 

[slowpat]

I have a C-40, C-42 and a C-45. The newer and more expensive C-45 sounded thin for my taste. The C-40 with the variable loudness was what I actually needed in my room, and the EQ controls run flat on center. If you can find a C-40 or one with Mc's variable loudness at a reasonable price, it may be worth trying. And you won't lose money on the Mc if it doesn't work out.