How to make digital sound like analog vinyl?

[robgmn]

I don't think that's not true. Air pressure from a sound cannot be asymmetrical for long periods. That would equal that the air will move preponderantly in one direction, to create a constant pressure front, like the wind. Recordings will have DC component. Ear drum would stay "pressed in" while listening.

If you don't think it's not true, then you think it's true.
Or you made a mistake in grammar or typing, and think it's not true that absolute phase is important.

If so, it's already been proven that the sound waves CAN be asymmetrical. It may not be for long periods (not many troughs or peaks of a sine wave ARE for long periods), but it has been proven to exist. This means it is potentially audible under the right circumstances.
Can't argue against that.

Some interesting reads:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may13/articles/qanda-0513-1.htm

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/ele...forms-totally-asymmetrical-zero-crossing.html

 

[SoNic67]

Yes I did mistype, thanks for pointing out.
The DC offset shown on gearslutz is a reality, especially for poorly designed input/output stages. It doesn't meant that the DC offset was present in music, because logically it would mean that the air would move more in one direction.
The material from soundsound seems to imply that some instruments will do that... but our ears cannot hear that, they are not audio-sensitive to constant pressure... Or low-frequency sounds for the same reason.

 

[robgmn]

For all I know these folks could be blowing a lot of smoke, which is why I often look for multiple sources that aren't just parroting each other.
They do mention this, which may have some relevance:
This kind of asymmetrical waveform is quite natural and normal, and is particularly common on recordings of speech and vocals, brass instruments, and sometimes also closely miked strings. A lot of percussive sounds are also strikingly asymmetrical, of course.

If the soundwave from percussion is commonly asymmetrical and you invert that symmetry, why COULDN'T that be an audible issue?
Remember, a soundwave is not constant pressure. It's compression and rarefaction.

This is pretty interesting too: http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/asymmetry/asym.html

 

[SoNic67]

Don't know... I didn't hear nothing clearly different when I inverted the speaker wires. Sometimes I am asking myself if I imagine things, so I try to go in without preconceived ideas.

As for the OP - what I found out that makes more difference to me is the digital filter before the DAC chip.
Multibit DAC's have the filters outside, a dedicated chip that do the oversampling and digital filtration. To my ear the best sounding filter of those dedicated chips is Denon's AL24 Processing.

The wast majority of delta-sigma DAC chips are highly integrated, they have the filter and the oversampling and filtration inside the same chip. Also they have to have analog filtering in form of switched capacitors, because of the high level of ultrasonic noise shaping required. Those filters are just not that good sounding in the end.

There are other advanced filter algorithms out there (trademarked names), some applied to delta-sigma chips... they sound better than integrated ones, but the output stage still has the switched capacitor filters. That's why I think that a multibit DAC with an advanced digital filter in front always sound better. A delta-sigma with an external dedicated filter can sound OK too... depending on the actual filter (some of the best Delta-Sigma DAC chips allow bypassing of internal filters).

 

[scott1019]

Build a DAC out of the AK4309 chip used in the PS1 SPCH-1001 to "analog-like" specs of THD+N=-84dB and SNR=-90dB.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/info_redirect/datasheets/105/136972_DS.pdf.shtml

Or if you play mostly CDs just get the actual PS1 and a wireless remote to accompany.

I played vinyl alongside the PS1 I had, and it indeed was very comparable, and has similar output levels as what a MM cart. with standard RIAA phono stage loading would... making this illusion even more convincing.

Even the earliest "good sounding" DAC chips like the TDA1541/3, PCM56/8, PCM 1702/4 will far exceed the spec's offered from any analog source.. as will anything else made since.

 

[scott1019]

Let's take a look at harmonic distortion in a digital system and a phonograph system.

Both systems comprise a series of stages, each of which distorts the signal, but these distortions do not sum additively or multiplicatively; they sum by quadrature, which is the fancy word for "square root of the algebraic sum of squares".

For example, let's take these figures and see what happens:

CD - 0.01%
Stylus - 0.6%
Phono EQ - 0.1%
Preamp - 0.05%
Power Amp - 0.1%

For the CD system, total harmonic distortion is

SQRT[ (0.01^2) + (0.05^2) + (0.1^2) ]
SQRT[ 0.0001 + 0.0025 + 0.01 ]
SQRT[ 0.0126 ]
= about 0.1% for the CD system

For the phono system:

SQRT[ (0.6^2) + (0.1^2) + (0.05^2) + (0.1^2) ]
SQRT[ 0.36 + 0.01 + 0.0025 + 0.01 ]
SQRT[ 0.3825 ]
= about .6% for the phono system


Let's see what happens when the speakers are added...

The majority of conventional speakers have a harmonic distortion between 10-30% (which is why only a couple of speaker manufacturers have ever revealed their measurements of this), even the fully loaded large horn systems, ribbons, and plasma tweeters and other "exotic" technologies barely get below 3% at moderately loud levels.

Taking very good conventional speakers as 15%...

CD system becomes SQRT[225.0126] = 15%
Phono sys becomes SQRT[225.3825] = 15%

What if you listen quietly at 2% exotic speaker distortion?

CD system becomes SQRT[4.0126] = 2.003%
Phono sys becomes SQRT[4.3825] = 2.093%

The way quadrature works, some of the distortions in previous stages when subsequently distorted in following stages are going to be distorted back to their original undistorted states, and quadrature accounts for this interaction between all the stages. If you understand negative feedback you already know the principle of how this works.

Maybe any discussion of distortion probably needs to be talking most about the speakers?

I was told there would be no math.

 

[onwardjames]

I'd like to address the fact that early on, two very respected members of AK replied to the OP's plea with what amounts to a very snarky dig at vinyl.

THIS IS UNBECOMING. He states that he likes the sound vinyl gives him (fat is how he described it, and I agree) and hearing damage could have been the cause.

Instead of leaning on him to listen to a format he doesn't care for (at the moment) why not address his question - how to make it sound more "analog/vinyl".

I'm with Dan (427) you might look into buying some choice vinyl and digitizing it. I love the results I get, and all my software I use is out there for free or cheap in cyberspace.

I know I'm late to the party, but I have seen a trend here where someone new or green comes on board, and we don't throw out the welcome wagon, we either make fun of them, degrade them, or pick them apart.

This is most certainly NOT what All Audio, No Attitude defines.

Okay, I got that off my chest.

edit - I see NegotiableTerms and Luvvinvinyl have already covered this. Thank you, gents.

 

[scott1019]

onwardjames, my suggestion was the best I could come up with if he wants to truly mimic analog/vinyl playback through a digital subset of gear. If there was a DAC built around that chipset from the PS1, I bet a ton of people would buy it for this reason. I was about to suggest he look into the Scott Nixon DAC, as I deem it to sound "most" like the early multi-bit DACs, but won't entirely sound "as close to vinyl" as a PS1 SPCH-1001. I have had both and can say this with certainty and still own the Scott Nixon. Touting the Scott Nixon would be deemed as an endorsement of a singular product, not a means to get closer to the OP's goal. I would also recommend a dBlabs Tranquility for similar purposes, but it would certainly come off as a ringing endorsement and I have no desire to recommend his products.

The only way to truly and unequivocally mimic the vinyl playback experience through digital means is to buy the best copy of the vinyl, record it properly, play back through digital.. OR get some mimicking software through the use of DSP and various means to get his digital to have a similar sound to vinyl.

I think at the heart of this matter is his aversion to digital sound (or the digital recordings he has), and his hopes to make it sound more like the vinyl he has heard, in the end, the only way possible to get vinyl to sound like that vinyl he heard is to play that vinyl and/or record it and then play it back digitally. OR find a version of that CD or digital file that is more pleasing to his end goals (ie. Analog sound). There is no silver bullet here.

My post was not meant to bash Vinyl or anything remotely near that. I have a turntable still and love it.. not only that, but I cited personal experience with a real world comparison.

I was just messing around about the "I was told there would be no math" as I deemed it appropriate, if off-topic, please remove mods.

 

[EyeGee]

Agree that one of the best things about "digital" vs. vinyl is that you don't have to get up to flip the record over every 20 minutes ....

 

[onwardjames]

Scott1019, I didn't have any issue whatsoever with your post, and I agree with you. I LOVE my little modded PS1. Smooth as butter. My tired ears appreciate its analog-y sound.

And agreed, EyeGee, but that is a topic for another thread. Welcome to AK, I see you're fairly new here.

 

[SoNic67]

BTW, digitizing vinyl is not a trivial task. First you need a good AD converter, at minimum THD+N at -100...101dB... and most of the sound cards on market are just garbage at that. A pro sound card is a start, but even then you still need a good pre-amp for RIAA part.
For example I have a E-MU 1820M that has as ADC AK5394 (AKM) - it is also used in many professional recording consoles. Luckily I managed to make it work in Windows 10...
After that there is still the matter of what are you using to play that PCM format. Again, most of the entry-level DAC's might color the sound in a subtle way that will make it NOT sound like the original vinyl. I know that because I did those conversions. As I was stating above, the digital filter included in most of the off-the-shelf delta-sigma DAC chips is not gonna cut it. Pre-ringing, noise shaping pumping, there are lots of things to go wrong.
As for the PS1 "qualities" - that's the biggest fallacy on the internet. Just because it is repeated over and over it doesn't make it true. That DAC is just one of the first tries at delta-sigma approach by AKM (AK4309) and they discovered that it had flaws and greatly improved on it on latter designs. Their latest AK4490 is much, much better in that regard.

 

[Herr Eickhorn]

Build a DAC out of the AK4309 chip used in the PS1 SPCH-1001 to "analog-like" specs of THD+N=-84dB and SNR=-90dB.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/info_redirect/datasheets/105/136972_DS.pdf.shtml

Or if you play mostly CDs just get the actual PS1 and a wireless remote to accompany.

I played vinyl alongside the PS1 I had, and it indeed was very comparable, and has similar output levels as what a MM cart. with standard RIAA phono stage loading would... making this illusion even more convincing.

Even the earliest "good sounding" DAC chips like the TDA1541/3, PCM56/8, PCM 1702/4 will far exceed the spec's offered from any analog source.. as will anything else made since.

Its not the chip:

"In the July 18, 2008 Stereophile there’s a review by Art Dudley of the Sony PlayStation 1 CD Player where in it’s praised as sounding better in many ways than the $3,450 MSRP Sony SCD-777ES SACD and CD player. John Atkinson’s tests that accompanied the review reveal that its RCA jack’s output is polarity inverting and its composite audio outputs are non-inverting."

http://www.absolutepolarity.com/

 

[onwardjames]

BTW, digitizing vinyl is not a trivial task. First you need a good AD converter, at minimum THD+N at -100...101dB... and most of the sound cards on market are just garbage at that. A pro sound card is a start, but even then you still need a good pre-amp for RIAA part.
For example I have a E-MU 1820M that has as ADC AK5394 (AKM) - it is also used in many professional recording consoles. Luckily I managed to make it work in Windows 10...
After that there is still the matter of what are you using to play that PCM format. Again, most of the entry-level DAC's might color the sound in a subtle way that will make it NOT sound like the original vinyl. I know that because I did those conversions. As I was stating above, the digital filter included in most of the off-the-shelf delta-sigma DAC chips is not gonna cut it. Pre-ringing, noise shaping pumping, there are lots of things to go wrong.
As for the PS1 "qualities" - that's the biggest fallacy on the internet. Just because it is repeated over and over it doesn't make it true. That DAC is just one of the first tries at delta-sigma approach by AKM (AK4309) and they discovered that it had flaws and greatly improved on it on latter designs. Their latest AK4490 is much, much better in that regard.

Item 1 - You are seriously overthinking it. I have a radio shack old school 3 channel mixer, I use that phono stage, and an MCS 6601 turntable (modded) and am getting excellent results.

Item 2 - I have an unmodded PS1 and a modded one. I've played these for countless people, and they all liked it. The sound is lush, and non-fatiguing. The end all? Of course not, let's not be silly.

Not sure why you put so much effort into such a negative post.

And we should all read Herr Eickhorn's link. Made my head hurt, but was very interesting.

 

[SoNic67]

It isn't negative, it's just the reality.
I have thriftstores around me too, I am a hoarder for electronics, so I got one of those "miracles" a few years back. Besides the "cool" factor of having a $10 CD player that is not a really a CD player, there is nothing there. I have a Philips CD473 player that I paid the same amount and sounds better - and even that one is not my "go to" player.
I am a tinkerer too and I modded most of my players - new OpAmps, better capacitors, better diodes. I even have replaced the power amp IC's in my car "premium" amplifier, so it's not an issue of not being open or exposed to different approaches. Sometimes a pig is just a pig...

 

[thedelihaus]

Without getting into semantics...

I use a Rega DAC. It's a DAC with a colored sound, in my opinion, but i enjoy it immensely. I have some pretty decent CD players I use as transports, but can find the sound a bit overbearing at times due to the excellent detail and resolution.

For whatever reason, the Rega retains almost the same level of resolution, but imparts a sound, that, to my ears, is a bit exaggerated in tone from what is considered neutral, but in my system (which is otherwise quite clear and neutral) it is a pleasant addition.

A tube buffer may also be a possibility- they, to me, seem to obscure a touch of detail but also seem additive, in regards to ambience, and impart a certain smoothness (no doubt through distortion) to the music that takes off the edge.

 

[stoutblock]

One of the albums that blows me away in vinyl is Jeff Beck - Blow by Blow. The sound engineers worked overtime on this album and hearing it on a good system is to die for. Sound stage and imaging that happen in my listening room with this album can be breathtaking. I also have this album on FLAC and on SACD and I've been able to get it close to the effect of vinyl but have never quite achieved it yet. Probably the closest I get to the vinyl sound is to record the SACD at 7.5 ips 2 track tape on my reel to reel. For some reason this gets really darn close to vinyl. Even closer than vinyl recorded on the same deck so go figure.

I'm not saying that one format is more capable than another. For example I have many SACDs that perform better than their vinyl counter parts and some FLAC files that also go beyond other formats. This effect is probably 80% mixing and reproduction methods?

 

[SoNic67]

Probably... I guess it depends of so many things.
For example, one of my go-to test songs is Message In A Bottle by Police. The cymbals on that pice are so demanding that many modern DAC's will make them sound fuzzy. I have that song on two different CD, SACD, vinyl. Well, at first I thought that the SACD sound the best trough my Denon DVD-3910 (with AL24 Processing Plus), although the CD sounded pretty close. Still, the vinyl was having something more "life" in those cymbals, even if overall it didn't sounded better.
Well, I acquired an older Denon DCM-360 (with first gen Alpha processing, multibit 20bit DAC - PCM61). I tinker, upgrade the opamps with modern ones (LM4562), some caps, etc... When I run the same song, my face fell off. Cymbals are going crazy, it's the sound of the vinyl without the other negative aspects (bass, image, stereo).
Since then I acquired a DCM-460 (almost the same config, headphones output) - same result, a Yamaha CDX-530 (PCM61 DAC, no Alpha Processing) - almost the same result.
I am trying to edge between the SACD (via delta-sigma) and the CD (via multibit plus Alpha upsampling) and I cannot.
More about mixing, cutting LP's, re-mastering:
http://www.musictap.net/Interviews/LudwigBobInterview.html

 

[EyeGee]

Regarding digitizing vinyl, I have an Edirol RCA/USB input/output that I bought quite early on --- it was one of their first models. It has worked quite well for me. I remember buying it because my laptop at the time had a horrible mic input and USB was the way to get around that. When "Cakewalk" went away I was a little frustrated but I recently digitized the new LP by Apache, available only in vinyl, it sounds great as a digital file. Have yet to burn it to CD, however.

I find all the steps tedious but since I use a CD changer for 5-7 hours worth of no-fuss listening sometimes it is necessary.

And with 800+ CDs, I have neither the time nor inclination to set up a music server and feed it into the Mac via a DAC.

 

[House de Kris]

According to an Abby Road Studio vinyl mastering and cutting engineer, this new Waves Audio plug in may indeed make digital sound like analog vinyl. Might be fun to play around with. I like how positioning the tonearm changes the processing.

 

[xero-D-hero]

Hmmm,interesting thread,my current DAC is a Parasound D/AC-1000 and it has a polarity invert button and I have'nt even bothered to try it out as that DAC sound so damn giid I cant imagine it sounding even better than it does now.

And that's just with 320kbs Mp3's...

Anyhow just as some "food for thought" here's what the D/AC-1000 manual says about that feature:

Polarity Invert Button and LED
This button allows you to select between 0° normal opemtion and 180° inverted polarity. Even if
you know if your preamplifier and power amplifier are inverting or non-inverting designs, you
have no way to know which of your CD's may have been recorded with inverted absolute polarity.

Absolute polarity is not the same as Left-Right loudspeaker phasing. Absolute polarity means the
+ and - of both channels are reproduced so the compression wave of an initial musical attack
correlates to the compression wave ( +) from outgoing speaker diaphragm motion rather than
rarefraction (-) of ingoing speaker diaphragm motion.

Your choice of 0° or 180° polarity will be strictly a matter of taste. It may be easier to detect
differences between 0° and 180° polarity with some recordings than with others. Don't be
discouraged if you cannot hear the difference - not everyone can identify absolute polarity.

So I guess I'll hafta give the polarity invert feature a try when I get around to re-ripping my CD collection to a lossless format (right now my CD's are buried in my closet behind a wall of big @ss speakers,LOL).

FWIW

Bret P.