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Hpm-150 & Hpm-1500

Discussion in 'Pioneer Audio' started by Wolfmother, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    Distinctions!

    By SX I should have said SX-xx5x models--your SX-838 is a warmer sounding receiver than the Silver Everywhere 1977 series.

    I also think I need to talk about the plus-500-dollar-each HPM's in a different light from the HPM-100 on down--if my experience with my 'new' HPM-1500 is an indicator. 1500 sounds great on my TOTL Concept. 6 hours of listening to FM and no fatigue.

    So we have the HPM-200, 1100, 150, & 1500; these mop the floor with the 100's (with all due respect, I've had three 100's in perfect shape).

    donberry, ah, so peak-era Kenwoods also work; thanks, I haven't moved the 9050 from the other room yet to tell. We'll see. Then the R-117 gets a turn.

    Sweet setup redd6054 and I don't just mean the one with wheels. My AX-900U is only half alive, but my M-4 and C-4's may give me a glimpse of your set.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2009

     

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  2. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    For a dynamic 4-way system the term Flat may be a matter of degree.

    The 150/1500 SM's graph shows the HPM characteristic 'bump' at 80 Hz. West-coast all the way. But yes Ed in Tx
    flatter than earlier model HPMs, esp. from the midbass on up! (You'd never confuse it with my old KEF 104/3 Reference Series though.)

    I've listened to my 1500's for 6 hours. You've had your set of 4 for years so I really want to hear your views! :banana:

    I've read all your earlier Model 150 posts (with the 'search' feature.)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  3. mhardy6647

    mhardy6647 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    The HPMs were the genesis of Pioneer's fine and expensive line of TAD drivers.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  4. redd6054

    redd6054 Active Member

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    Ottawa,Ontario,Canada
    here is a pic if this works
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  5. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    My recapped 1250 doesn't seem to lag on the highs except at extreme volumes, but the low DF does allow woofers too much lattitude. Could be I'm not a fan of toroids.

    The difference between my Concept and SX-1250 is clear on DQ-10s.


    Designing an amp for an specific speaker may have merit with Carver Amazings or Apogees, but here with my 6-ohm HPM-1500's?

    I thought some of the smaller drivers were also CF or some blend (according to the brochures).

    About which specs that might predict compatibility with HPM models, 100's and larger, I have an array of subjects to test:


    SX-1250-- low DF, high Bandwidth for a Rcvr.
    KR-9050-- extremely high (100-200?) Slew Rate
    Concept-- extremely high 450 DF, medium 38 SR
    Hafler DH-220-- MosFET, high SR, lower WPC
    Sanyo JCX2900K-- (ring emitters?)
    Fisher-- 15 amp monster of monsters
    R-117-- 700wpc @ 2 ohms, lower SR
    SAE 100w Class A (it says that, I sorta doubt it) 600 DF
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2009
  6. SpeakerLabFan

    SpeakerLabFan < speakerlab 7's

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  7. Brad Muller

    Brad Muller Super Member

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    I'll say it once more.. the 150's walk all over the 100's.:yes:
     
  8. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    Brad your avatar walks all over... well just keep that Nancy Sinatra vibe going.

    Yeah! SX-1250 got that one right, the neutral (normal) position is Tone Defeated. Unlike my Concept, Fisher, yadda yadda it's assumed to be optional.

    CD Direct on the R-117 and AX-900u too. Of course if I go multiamp and xover bypass all bets are off, I'll want a 1/3 octave Rane EQ.

    SpeakerLabFan mine look exactly like that except I have the Jubalesque smoked plate glass top. Oh yes my surrounds have gone missing. :pawprint:

    The removable upper Saucer Section (yes there's Star Trek in us all) is via a large cojoined opening so that gains an extra cubic foot of volume for those 15's. Fortunately, the mids are subenclosured--or they'ed pop right out like Arnold's eyeballs in Total Recall.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2009
  9. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    Here's info from a listing on a site who's link would get this thread moved:

    This is about the model 150, so the top enclosure is different:

     
  10. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    Woofers:

    Without surrounds, the woofer throw seems very good; but the gap between the cone edge and basket is small, seemingly preventing a large radius surround. Somebody thought they were getting oiled corrugated and then got snipped by Bean Counters?

    The back of my woofer magnets don't have a wire mesh. Why it would need one I can't imagine, it is sealed in back. This is the later version without placement bolts, 40-802A.

    Mid ranges:

    As has been pointed out, the mid and dome tweets are not interchangeable with HPM-100s. The brushed aluminum basket front face has a direction, not the diffuse look of the 100's drivers. Could be cosmetic only?

    Supertweets:

    3"? That's 2 times the height of the 100's half-cylinder. 4 times the radiating surface? Means lower crossover points or slopes are possible, and/or higher output volume.

    Not sure I buy the claim of the advantageous limited vertical dispersion pattern effects caused by the circular stacked plates. Wouldn't they interfere a lot since the plates are parallel--not like Altec sectorals and my (Fulton) RtR-6 which are circumradial?

    But I don't hear comb effects. The back and sides of the room do reflect more than the front-baffle-mounted Model 100's supertweet, allowing more relaxed off-axis and off-center listening positions.

    That's the real key I think; dynamic speakers' HF should always be less picky than planars...

    Take two JBL hourglass tweets back-to-back and top mount them? :D
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2009
  11. donberry

    donberry Super Member

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    susrus - not only the Kenwood, that is just what I am using currently, I do not have a dedicated audio room yet, so waf often prevails at the moment.
    I have also had them hooked up the following, and muddy is never a word that came close to describing these. I used to have a pair of HPM-1500 in 1978 and forgot how good these are. The imaging, the clarity and the reproduction in my opinion, is top notch. Mids and highs are better on the magnepans, but that was expected.
    Now of course I have always had vintage amps on it, maybe that makes a difference. But i have heard other people's systems who had supposedly wayyyyy better speakers(I won't say the name as i do not want to start a war) and they definitely had better amps - I walked away thinking I had a really nice system.
    Other amps I have tried and the HPM-150 did just fine on
    Carver M1.0, Crown DC-300A II, Pioneer Spec 2, Marantz 2238 and a newer Denon 2 channel, I forget the model number.

    Now I do have an Onkyo A-5 and a Toshiba SA-775 that , to me, they do not excel on. But I believe that is more the speakers showing the flaws of the amps then the speakers themselves. Actually , after using the Onkyo, it led me to believe I need to re-cap that so it is in line for a restore.

    Of course everyone likes something different, so no speaker can claim to be the "best". But if anyone has not heard the HPM-150 or 1500, don't think for a minute it is a muddy sounding bass booming speaker. It does reach down deep for those low bass notes and if I want to, I can crank up the bass control and make it that way, but with the bass control left on neutral or even maybe a +1, IMO, I feel the bass was way more accurate then pretty much every other speaker I listed and many more i have heard - and slow never even entered into my thought process.
    I have no doubt there are better speakers under $2k, but I would bet you would audition quite a few before you found them.
    and having both, never make the mistake it is just an over grown HPM-100 with a fancy top - totally different animal(which as I mentioned, I want to try to copy the 150 crossover and try it in the 100's.)
    Obviously i come to their defense as I have them and like them. But i have tried quite a few other speakers before I decided these were the ones (now I am torn tho with the magnepans, they both excel in different ways)
    I remember when I first got a pair of infinity RS-III. Everyone kept telling me they would blow my HPM out of the water - I sold the RS-III's. Same with the Kappa 7's. No way could my HPM's be even in the same ball park - now maybe I have a bad ear, but the Kappa 7 was not nearly as good in the bass department. I refoamed both speakers, the woofer for the HPM weighed as much as 4 or 5 woofers from the Kappa's.
    People then told me it was because my amps were not good enough, I liked boomy bass etc.......all I know is I sold the kappas and the HPM-150 is the last big box speaker standing. I do not even search for big box speakers anymore, these will be the last pair I probably own of this type.
    Not that I am biased or anything - heck, even the wife thought they have sounded the best out of everything I had.

    as for the comparison with the HPM-100 - I would just ask you to look at the xo in the 100 and then look at the xo in the 150. I have the 100, nothing against them at all - but the xo in it looks like a dime store xo compared to the 150.
     

     

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  12. HatchetJack

    HatchetJack Chillin' The Most

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    Not over my e-waved hpm 100's they wont. You know the woofers pretty
    good,its all the other stuff that was crap.The highs and mids are so good
    now I cant describe and with that nice warm hpm bass.Sweeeet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  13. hrballenger

    hrballenger Well-Known Member

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    I have a pair of 1100's and a pair of 150's driven with an S-1980. Owned them since new. Are they the best thing since sliced bread ? Nope, but I ( me, myself, my ears ) like them. Especially paired up. The 1100's contribute a bit of what the 150's lack and the 150's a bit of what the 1100' lack. Tone controls ? I run the speakers around -2 on the crossover pots, flat on the 1980 and just enough of a tweak on the SG9500 to dampen that bass hump a bit and roll the upper mids down a touch ( don't have anything on the 9500 more than 1 1/2 db or so up or down ). In the end, all that really matters is does it sound ok to me in my listening space I guess.
     
  14. redd6054

    redd6054 Active Member

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    We have a blues festival every year here in Ottawa, and what I did was listen to a whole bunch of artists live, sitting front row center. I bought the CD's of there live concert, took them home and listened to them on my 150's using the Yamaha MX-1000u and C-2 with pioneer elite CD player. I learned that they did not sound at all like the live performance, which were all heavey on bass and very Dynamic. so I bought a DBX-3bx III dynamic range expander and a new dbx 215 EQ. after playing with the system I was able to get the live CD's to sound exactly like the concert, just not as loud. Sonny Landreth, Guy Forsyth, David Maxwell, Taj Mahal, etc. sound just like there are playing in front of me. To me that is the goal here to have the music sound the way the artist sounded. This is success for me and I was not able to achieve that till I had the 150's. They will also be my last big box speaker. Thanks for listening, cheers Wolfgang
     
  15. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    The Blues! Super for testing/ranking speakers. Need: clear piercing highs for lead guitar riffs, good tone mids for female diva vocals, and cranking bass.

    HatchetJack, I don't doubt you but I'm pretty sure Brad meant stock 100's.

    Your E-Wave is a huge mod--a different speaker really. Now if anyone E-Waved something using that 15.75" woofer out of a 150/1100/1500, it would 'walk all over' the 12" from a model 100.

    Anybody Econo-Wave using a JBL 2235H? :saywhat:
     
  16. SoCal Sam

    SoCal Sam Lunatic Member

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    OK everyone, I heard the HPM-150 through a SPEC 1/2 setup. The SPEC 2 has never sounded good to me on any speaker including the HPM-100. The SPEC 2 is similar to the SX-1980 which I also do not like but retain in my collection for reasons other than sound. So, my impressions are definitely colored by the SPEC 2 and I am sure faster amps like the MX-1000U will give the 150 a better voice. BTW, the MX-1000U made Infinity SM-152's sound decently good.

    Susurus, some amps just don't reproduce the highs and the lows very well. Dull sounding amps tend to round off notes both in the attack and decay, which a bright speaker like the HPM-100 can compensate but never completely restore. With the SX-1250, I could leave the HPM's controls at neutral with acceptable results. When I ran my 16.5 with the HPM-100, I had to back off the mids and tweeters 6 dB to take the edge off and even then, it was fatiguing.
     

     

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  17. Susurus

    Susurus Resolution:6.62×10^-34

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    I like your style hrballenger!

    Please help pin down what sounds different between them. I did a search and very few people report hearing 150s, 1100's, & 1500's in the same room to compare.

    Even details like:

    1500's have risers-- 1100's & 150's sit on the floor. [1100 okay small risers, not on the floor - correction, thanks!]

    1500's mid/tweet upper module's baffle face is positioned back ~15mm for a slightly 'time-aligned' look. (about what you'd get tilting the front up a couple of degrees). And the supertweet is centered on top so that's 3-tiers of alignment for the 1500 (2-tiers for the 150).

    1100 drivers--all on one front baffle. Crossovers must be different for the dual-ribbon too.

    TIA,
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2009
  18. mhardy6647

    mhardy6647 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    1100s have small risers.
     
  19. Ed in Tx

    Ed in Tx Super Member

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    Well after almost 32 years I still have them! When I got the 150s I had 4 AR 3a speakers for about 8 years prior, so I went from one extreme coast to the other I guess! I was driving the ARs with 2 JBL SE400S power amplifiers and my Pioneer QC-800a 4 ch preamp, which gave me 100 W per channel into the ARs 4 Ohms, and they were strained to get high SPLs and sounded compressed at high volume. I fried a midrange in one of the ARs and had to send the whole thing 60 lbs or so to Lawerance KA to get repaired ..what a pain! Anyway I still love the 150s transparency and bass, which always seems very well defined and tight to me. Also the non-directional extreme highs from the supertweeters (we used to refer to those as Top Hat tweeters. A few guys at Pioneer added the 150 tweeters to HPM-100s for compactness and to get that widely dispersed high end. But I digress..) The bass of the 150 to me sounds like the bass instrument making the sound, well defined in the mix of the other instruments and sounds, not just "bass"... kind of hard to describe. When I had the 150s in the corners of the room I stuffed the ports with rolled up towels which tamed the excess boom from the corner reinforcement. The 150s will play effortlessly at near concert volume driven with the SPEC-4s. Only thing that's ever failed were the woofer surrounds back in '90 or so. Before the internet, I had read an ad in Audio magazine for Simply Speakers surround kit, got some and did my first surround replacements, and those are still in good shape today.
     
  20. Ed in Tx

    Ed in Tx Super Member

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    Interresting tid-bit and vague mention of Pioneer's TAD pro audio and high end speakers. Tad Asanuma'a baby to this day last time I talked to anyone I knew at Pioneer. Rarely if ever hear mention of TAD anywhere.



    pioneerelectronics.com TAD-Loudspeakers
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2009

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