Hybrid (Silver/Copper) cables: do they make sense?

[House de Kris]

OK, let's try to stay on topic here. The OP asked about Hero HB, which is an analog interconnect. So, discussions of speaker cables aren't really the point. I checked the Kimberly page, and didn't see that silver is used for the signal and copper is used for the return, but I'll go ahead and take the OP's word for it. If the OP's claim is true, there may be a reasonable answer as to why. In coaxial cable construction, the return path usually has more material in it than the signal path. If both paths are made of the same metal, the return path will have a lower resistance than the signal path. It makes sense, then, to use a metal with less unit resistance in the signal path than the return path - if the goal were to have roughly equivalent resistance in each path.

I make no claims to the superiority of this approach.

 

[njcanuck]

To add to the confusion, I've been using VH Audio Pulsar Cu interconnect cable which has a pure copper signal path and a silver plated copper shield. Ie: the opposite of the OP's. I'm sure the same principles apply but I don't know what they are either.

Here's the marketing blurb on the product: "All versions of the Pulsar provide double-shielding, with foil and a SILVER-plated copper braid. The silver plated braid adds the benefit of a low impedance path to ground, and preserves the high-end "sparkle" missing in many copper-based analog IC's. All Pulsar variants also use a thin, solid FEP dielectric with no pigments (clear) for the jacket material.

1) The original Pulsar wire utilizes a fine 28 AWG single, solid core OFHC BARE copper center conductor, surrounded by a solid FEP dielectric. The use of the fine 28 AWG BARE copper center conductor eliminates the brightness found in many silver plated copper designs. Outside diameter is only .118", and the cable is quite flexible. Capacitance = 19.0 pF per foot. Deep Cryogenically treated."

Don't know if there's any science in there. :scratch2: They sound very good though. :yes:

 

[Rob-F]

***Edited by moderator***

I do agree that in an orderly universe, everything about the performance of a cable should be explicable under physical laws. That we can hear cable differences we can't explain, doesn't mean there's no explanation. For example, I coudn't explain why silver, with its slightly lower R, should sound any better than copper. Maybe the conductivity of silver oxide, as explained by JoeESP9 above, is the answer. And since many amplifiers don't like looking into a capacitive load, maybe cables sound best when they are low in C.

And Mark Gosdin's remark that cable construction is all-important, carries a lot of weight with me as well.

 

[Rob-F]

You'll notice that none of the cable manufacturers will give you LCR specs for their cables . . .

For Kimber hero HB:

C= 73.3pF @ 20KHZ
L= .382microHenries @ 20KHz.
R= .0388ohms
For a 1M cable.

from Kimber's website.
http://www.kimber.com/products/interconnects/analog/hero/hb/

 

[JoeESP9]

Is that for both (+ and -) runs of cable, and with or without the ends crimped on? (i.e., the way the cable would actually be used)

Kimber HB is an interconnect it comes with RCA connectors. It's not available without.

 

[runnin']

Kimber HB is an interconnect it comes with RCA connectors. It's not available without.

And that brings up the metal content of the RCA connectors. The vast majority of budget IC's come with a variety of brass connectors(not claiming anything about Kimber). Brass is a worse conductor than either copper or silver, so wouldn't that negate cable performance at least somewhat?

 

[JoeESP9]

Hero uses WBT-0102 RCA connectors. They are copper. Kimber also lists the LCR specs. They also give you the option of Silver WBT RCA's.

It seems Kimber publishes LCR specs for all their IC's.

 

[FauxHall]

Brass doesn't work-harden in this application (RCA connectors.) Pure copper would. in other words, pure copper would get hard and brittle and eventually break.

In this application, the mechanical advantages of brass out-weight any electrical advantage of copper.

BTW - in my earlier post I hadn't noticed that we were considering interconnects and I went off on my home-built speaker cables. My mistake and my apology.

 

[runnin']

Brass doesn't work-harden in this application (RCA connectors.) Pure copper would. in other words, pure copper would get hard and brittle and eventually break.

In this application, the mechanical advantages of brass out-weight any electrical advantage of copper.

I'm not quite sure what the phrase, "work-harden" means, or at least what your intent is there. But if pure copper gets hard and brittle over time, wouldn't that show up more with copper wire in homes?

Eichmann has an RCA plug design where most of the outer collar that contacts the RCA socket is not conductive at all. Instead, just one point in the collar is conductive, and this is said to be a similar design to "star earthing" done in amplifiers and apparently reduces eddy currents when compared to the more conventional design.

Eichmann has a silver and a copper version of this plug, and I've never heard them or anything like them. It has made me curious though, as it is true that brass RCA's are a worse conductor than the copper wires that they are connected to.

 

[FauxHall]

The outer ring on an RCA connector has to go into tension when you insert it. That gives it its grip. A piece of pure copper will, over time and with repeated tension and relaxation, change its crystallization and become hard and brittle. House wiring is usually put in place and left there. That's why copper cords are braided.

Google "work hardening" and copper and you'll see some YouTubes on it. Here's Wikipedia that specifically addresses the phenomenon - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening.

Gold-plated brass connectors are a good solution. One gets the corrosion resistance and high conductivity of gold and the workability of brass.

 

[Rob-F]

Would you get half the "benefits" of all Silver?

Could be. That seems like one possibility. Another possibility (it seems to me) is that maybe the overall system performance is limited by its weakest link. So if its half silver and half copper, and copper lacks that certain je ne sais pas quoi that people are able to hear with silver, then perhaps the benefit of the silver is lost. I don't know.

 

[datafone]

The copper/silver works well IMO in some cables I have used, most noticeably the Van Damme cable used in the RCA's from TT to phono.

Meh, same old same threads, and same old responses.

Edit: BTW, in my system Brass connectors sux

But I can only say what works here, if Brass works for others, more power to you

 

[Bigerik]

Sad, that the All Audio, No Attitude mantra of AK only seems to apply in certain instances.

To the OP, if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion about this topic, I will happily move this thread to The Cutting Edge, and delete the "snake oil" troll comments.

 

[JoeESP9]

Lest there be any confusion, I have put my money where my mouth is by actually buying Silver plated copper wire IC's and speaker cables. All of the cables I currently use in my system are from DH Labs.

I think they make an improvement in the sound of my system. The combination of Silver and Copper seems to accentuate the strengths of each while minimizing the deficiencies of both. I agree about brass connectors sucking sound wise. (IMO) They have a deleterious effect on my system. Copper connectors sound better

If others think I'm deluding myself and/or wasting my money, my response is; If you have an objection to me spending my money on what I want, or, to having a subjective opinion on what I've spent that money on, get over it.

 

[cratz2]

Lest there be any confusion, I have put my money where my mouth is by actually buying Silver plated copper wire IC's and speaker cables. All of the cables I currently use in my system are from DH Labs.

I think they make an improvement in the sound of my system. The combination of Silver and Copper seems to accentuate the strengths of each while minimizing the deficiencies of both. I agree about brass connectors sucking sound wise. (IMO) They have a deleterious effect on my system. Copper connectors sound better

If others think I'm deluding myself and/or wasting my money, my response is; If you have an objection to me spending my money on what I want, or, to having a subjective opinion on what I've spent that money on, get over it.

+1.

As I always say on these types of threads - if I say anything at all - is there is a difference. Within reason, of course. None of us can say if the difference is worth it to you but if you can't hear the difference between, say, Audioquest Midnight and DH Labs T14, then either your equipment or your ears are failing you. In no way does that mean that T14 is 'better' than Midnight nor that either of them are better than 12 or 14 gauge power cord from Lowe's but there simply is a difference.

 

[Rob-F]

I'm all for it

Sad, that the All Audio, No Attitude mantra of AK only seems to apply in certain instances.

To the OP, if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion about this topic, I will happily move this thread to The Cutting Edge, and delete the "snake oil" troll comments.

Yes, I'm all for that. Thanks!

Rob

 

[Bigerik]

Cleaned up this thread. TCE rules apply now, so we can have a good conversation about the OP's very interesting question.

 

[c.coyle]

I see where Kimber makes the Hero cable in three versions: There is a one with all copper conductors; one with silver; and one (Hero HB) that has a silver conductor for the "hot" and copper for the ground. I wonder: why is it important for electrons to ride into the amplifier on silver wire, but OK for them ride back home on a mere copper ground wire? Seems to me that both legs of the circuit are equally important.

It's sort of like this: someone builds a posh hotel for people with BMWs and Rolls Royces. They pave the entrance driveway with expensive Italian Travertine tile. The exit is a gravel road. (OK, maybe asphalt.)

Get my point? Does it make sense to upgrade one conductor to silver, and leave the other as copper, in the same circuit? What am I missing, here? :scratch2:

As long as the weakest link in your system is asphalt or packed gravel that has been installed properly and kept in good repair, all will be fine.

If you hear a difference, then you do.

 

[Rob-F]

Another way to approach this is: If it is a given that one conductor is to be silver, and the other copper, could there be a reason to privilege the center-conductor over the shield/common by making the center conductor the silver one? Or might the cable perform just the same with the shield in silver and the center conductor copper?

 

[soundmig]

+1 for Silver plated copper.

I for one am a big fan of silver plated copper wire. Having been a musician from a very early age and sitting inside the band and orchestra and hearing the minute details of the "air" going through instruments and coming off of the drum heads, I find that silver plated copper wire seems to provide these details without getting too "hard" sounding.

I'm lucky in that I have owned or have or had on hand many of the high end cables (I used to be a high-end dealer) and like many others on this thread have said - they all sound different and which is better is a matter of personal taste. I once had a customer take me to his house and listen to his system, and it was simply exquisite. He attributed much of the sound quality and huge soundstage to his silver plated copper wire. I've been experimenting with it ever since.

Currently I use silver plated copper on all interconnects (custom audioquest), except between pre-amp and active crossover. I also use silver plated copper stranded speaker wire (nordost - no longer made) with no terminations - just bare wire. Between pre-amp and active crossover i use pure silver as I find that it gives just a bit more "body" to the instruments especially wind instruments.