Hybrid (Silver/Copper) cables: do they make sense?

[onemug]

Currently I use silver plated copper on all interconnects (custom audioquest), except between pre-amp and active crossover. I also use silver plated copper stranded speaker wire (nordost - no longer made) with no terminations - just bare wire. Between pre-amp and active crossover i use pure silver as I find that it gives just a bit more "body" to the instruments especially wind instruments.

Curious...what kind of dielectric is on the cables you like? and do you think the choice of dielectric is important?

fwiw, I do. Just wondering what you and others may be concluding.

 

[jimfet]

I noticed this thread a couple of weeks ago, but haven't clicked on it yet. So now that it's up to 3 pages, I'd figure I would click on the last page and see if there was a scuffle going on yet. Continue on men.

 

[onemug]

I noticed this thread a couple of weeks ago, but haven't clicked on it yet. So now that it's up to 3 pages, I'd figure I would click on the last page and see if there was a scuffle going on yet. Continue on men.

Exactly what I did.

It was getting to be a game that when I would see a "cable" thread, I would guess how long it would take to get closed by the Moderators due to the insecure that need to lash out when someone has a different opinion than theirs.

I do see that Bigerik had to do a little tidying up, so i think I missed some posts. Thank you BigE.

Men continue.

 

[Rob-F]

I for one am a big fan of silver plated copper wire. Having been a musician from a very early age and sitting inside the band and orchestra and hearing the minute details of the "air" going through instruments and coming off of the drum heads, I find that silver plated copper wire seems to provide these details without getting too "hard" sounding.

I'm lucky in that I have owned or have or had on hand many of the high end cables (I used to be a high-end dealer) and like many others on this thread have said - they all sound different and which is better is a matter of personal taste. I once had a customer take me to his house and listen to his system, and it was simply exquisite. He attributed much of the sound quality and huge soundstage to his silver plated copper wire. I've been experimenting with it ever since.

Currently I use silver plated copper on all interconnects (custom audioquest), except between pre-amp and active crossover. I also use silver plated copper stranded speaker wire (nordost - no longer made) with no terminations - just bare wire. Between pre-amp and active crossover i use pure silver as I find that it gives just a bit more "body" to the instruments especially wind instruments.

Thanks for these comments! Though not really a response to my original question, I found your comments, based on actual listening, interesting and useful!

 

[soundmig]

Silver plated copper

onemug …. yes dielectric makes a difference. I can't say that I have a strong preference for one or the other, but all of my current cables have teflon dielectric. So, if I had to guess, I'd say that i must prefer the sound of teflon as a dielectric? Some are foamed and some are not.

I have or had a good friend that is a cable engineer (not sure if he's still around) and he once explained to me the sonic differences between the various dielectrics and the science that (in his opinion) explained those differences. I can't' say that I remember those details - sadly. He would mix the dielectric for + and - runs in balanced cable to achieve the tonal balance desired for a given design. Then again there are engineers who would scoff at such things, so … who knows! But, one of his cables (that used Bocchino xlr's) was without a doubt the best interconnect cable I have ever heard - regardless of price or hype.

I have friends that don't like my cables all that much, as the "detail" is not something that everyone likes to hear. The cable are not "thin" sounding, if anything they are "warm", but with a ton of detail. As I stated earlier I have a bias toward "detail" because I've spent a good amount of time "inside" the ensemble as a musician and in that space you hear the spit in the clarinets, the air in the saxophones, the air on the drum heads and the bright but not harsh shimmer of the cymbals. I need that detail in order for it to "seem" correct to me. But, that point of view is different than someone who has always listened from row 12 or 14 in a concert hall or from a few tables back at a jazz club. Ultimately, to each his own. As long as we each enjoy our own systems - that is what is important

 

[Tangent]

.... There is a one with all copper conductors; one with silver; and one (Hero HB) that has a silver conductor for the "hot" and copper for the ground. I wonder: why is it important for electrons to ride into the amplifier on silver wire, but OK for them ride back home on a mere copper ground wire? Seems to me that both legs of the circuit are equally important.

This is what I think because it's what happens in my system.

Copper and silver will make music sound different. Copper should make the sound richer and fuller but not convey a lot of detail. Silver should make the sound have "air" and have lots of detail but won't be as full in the mid and lower octaves.

Back to the question. I think the Kimber silver/copper version would make music sound somewhere between full copper and full silver.

Even in the return.

I had a few sets of silver interconnects made by a local shop (now long gone) that had a copper return that was wound around the silver so the return was about 2X as long as the silver. They sounded pretty good!

Don't ask me about the science for these interconnects. That shop didn't know, they were just playing around!

 

[runnin']

I for one am a big fan of silver plated copper wire. Having been a musician from a very early age and sitting inside the band and orchestra and hearing the minute details of the "air" going through instruments and coming off of the drum heads, I find that silver plated copper wire seems to provide these details without getting too "hard" sounding.

I'm lucky in that I have owned or have or had on hand many of the high end cables (I used to be a high-end dealer) and like many others on this thread have said - they all sound different and which is better is a matter of personal taste. I once had a customer take me to his house and listen to his system, and it was simply exquisite. He attributed much of the sound quality and huge soundstage to his silver plated copper wire. I've been experimenting with it ever since.

Currently I use silver plated copper on all interconnects (custom audioquest), except between pre-amp and active crossover. I also use silver plated copper stranded speaker wire (nordost - no longer made) with no terminations - just bare wire. Between pre-amp and active crossover i use pure silver as I find that it gives just a bit more "body" to the instruments especially wind instruments.

Well isn't that something! I thought I had found the only such example of silver plated copper when it was suggested that Morrow Audio cables should be on my short list. I did some reading, and decided to give them a try, but I only noticed very small improvements after they had broken in(btw, do all makers of this type of cable suggest a long break in time? Morrow suggests up to 500 hours).

The problem was, I only tried one single pair of IC's when I needed 2 pairs in my system, so the other pair still in my system at the time was a cheap pair of stranded copper IC's. And my speaker cable was generic 12 gauge fine strand, or lamp cord.

About a year later, being somewhat frustrated, a guy on this forum suggested Audioquest Type 4 speaker cable. Solid conductor copper. It was the biggest improvement by cables I'd experienced. But the single pair of Morrow IC's was in the system, so that might have helped. Then I finally got another pair of the Morrow Audio IC's. They were both the same model, the MA-3. I now can get a 3d sounstage for the first time. Morrow makes several cables more expensive, so I expect the detail gets a lot better, but at this price point, and with the Type 4 cables, I'm pretty impressed.

And now I find that several companies dabble in silver plated copper, I guess I shouldn't be surprised as it sounds so good!

 

[datafone]

I only just replaced a pair of Silver/Copper 7N IC's with some all Silver IC's.

The Silver/Copper 7N IC's were not plated, they used both solid core of each metal in their construction.....they were very nice, very smooth, open and natural sounding. I only changed as the 99.99 all Silver ones just suit my system a little better at the moment and give it a tad more transparency without losing... too much of what the 7N IC's did

My speaker cables are all solid core 7N copper.

 

[soundmig]

Hmmm …..

So, I spent some time at RMAF speaking with the founder of Anti-Cables. He has tested silver plated copper extensively and says that it "sounds hi-fi" (bright) but does not sound coherent (paraphrased). That is curious, because I have always felt that the silver plated copper sounded "more coherent" and more "real". Hmmmm …..

I guess I need to get a set of his enamel coated high purity copper speaker cables and see what they sound like? The idea of "no dielectric" seems to make sense, so why not? Isn't an enamel coating a dialectic of sorts? Regardless, the guy listens to his ears for design instead of relying solely on measurements that may or may not translate to sonic results.

This brings me to one of my pet peeves about Hi-End audio. Real voices and real instruments do not always sound pleasant. I've done a fair amount of time behind the mixing console, which includes copious listing to the un-mic'd source and comparing that to what is heard in the studio monitors. Trust me, many singers have an "edge" to their sound (live and un-mic'd) as do the sounds of snare drums, xylophones, rhodes pianos, strings played hard, etc. etc. etc. So, if a system cannot reproduce this "harshness" in a natural manner - it is to me "highly colored". So, there is natural and unnatural "harshness" and discerning between the two requires a LOT of aural experience. I find that most audiophiles prefer NO harshness, which is (IMO) unnatural and a coloration of its own. Solid Core silver and silver plated copper, seem to me to reproduce the "edge" in a natural way. This stuff is never easy - is it?

 

[datafone]

In general I have never liked silver plated copper, my experience is like that of Anti-Cables dude, pure copper or pure silver for me.......and I mean "high" purity, but I have heard good things about soft annealed silver

Ah, yeah.....the live experience. I don't attempt to reproduce that sort of thing, I prefer to strive for natural but pleasing tones and a presentation I like.

IMO everything has a sound signature, and nothing can be totally neutral.

Nup, never easy

 

[runnin']

On the silver plated copper sounding bright, I wish it would in my system, and I have some higher end Paradigm's that can be bright indeed. I've got Morrow Audio IC's and not a hint of brightness with Parasound gear, one pair even has Eichmann silver RCA connectors. I dislike brightness and had it in my system, but it wasn't cable related.

I'm probably going to change up my speaker cables to straight silver(Clear Day has good word of mouth) in hopes of getting a little zing.

 

[datafone]

On the silver plated copper sounding bright, I wish it would in my system, and I have some higher end Paradigm's that can be bright indeed. I've got Morrow Audio IC's and not a hint of brightness with Parasound gear, one pair even has Eichmann silver RCA connectors. I dislike brightness and had it in my system, but it wasn't cable related.

I'm probably going to change up my speaker cables to straight silver(Clear Day has good word of mouth) in hopes of getting a little zing.

You point out something very important there

All this stuff is often system dependent! what works well in one system may not work well in another system.

I like the Eichmann products, very good stuff....Kieth Eichmann's new Silver ICs are reported to be very good, but I have yet to try them. I got some more zing without any brightness by moving to pure silver ICs including all silver plugs.....unbranded custom ones.

 

[runnin']

Yes, what works in one system doesn't work in another and vice versa, sometimes you just have to try something to see what it does in your gear. It's forums like this one which helped me try cables in the first place!

 

[soundmig]

Datafone and Runnin, you are so right …. How it all works together trumps any specific cable construction paradigm one might prefer.

 

[Rob-F]

Just noticed on the Kimber website that Kimber Kable Silver Streak also makes use of both silver and copper conductors. The way I read it, separately insulated silver and copper wires carry the signal, and copper is used for the "ground plane." Here again, importance is being given to the use of silver, yet there is no objection to using copper alongside in the same circuit.

I have not had the opportunity to listen to silver interconnects, nor silver/copper ones. I'd be interested in listener evals!

 

[datafone]

Yeah, seen that done, seems to work well for some manufacturers

 

[runnin']

Just noticed on the Kimber website that Kimber Kable Silver Streak also makes use of both silver and copper conductors. The way I read it, separately insulated silver and copper wires carry the signal, and copper is used for the "ground plane." Here again, importance is being given to the use of silver, yet there is no objection to using copper alongside in the same circuit.

I have not had the opportunity to listen to silver interconnects, nor silver/copper ones. I'd be interested in listener evals!

I think speculation and head scratching can only take us so far. After all, we are not scientists. Why not call up Kimber yourself and ask what's going on? Or at least ask it of a dealer.

 

[slippers-on]

This is what I think because it's what happens in my system.

Copper and silver will make music sound different. Copper should make the sound richer and fuller but not convey a lot of detail. Silver should make the sound have "air" and have lots of detail but won't be as full in the mid and lower octaves.

Back to the question. I think the Kimber silver/copper version would make music sound somewhere between full copper and full silver.

Even in the return.

I had a few sets of silver interconnects made by a local shop (now long gone) that had a copper return that was wound around the silver so the return was about 2X as long as the silver. They sounded pretty good!

Don't ask me about the science for these interconnects. That shop didn't know, they were just playing around!

It is not always true that copper doesn't convey a lot of detail and air. Ever heard of cast copper or cryoed treated copper? Cast copper is the purest copper you can get. And Cryoed treated copper is very close to sounding like cast copper. I have cryoed treated copper speaker cables, and cast copper interconnects, from amp to preamp and phono amp to preamp as well as cast silver over copper interconnects From my DAC to preamp. The cast copper and cryoed copper continue in the tradition of copper in that you maintain the richness, the body as well as the natural tones but you also have air and detailed notes lingering a little longer. It is true that in some systems cast copper or cryoed copper is not enough to bring out some of the finer subtle sounds due to the nature of the gear being far left of neutral in to a much darker, warmer territory. My DAC in combination with my tubed amp and preamp rendered a warmer darker tone, so the cast silver over copper afforded me to bring the tone back to neutral with the richness I needed in the body and the silver helped with the finer detail in the higher frequencies. Mind you, good cables can be costly. When listening to music, it's as if nothing is connecting the different components....music is truly in the air before me.

Silver on the other hand will give you air if you needed it.....if you use silver and don't need silver, you get overkill thus bright sounding. Silver also has a tendency to not have as much richness through out the body as copper, but is known to bring out subtle detail. Kimber Kables do a great job of the copper silver mix....at least that's what I believe as those whom ears I trust use Kimber Kables.

It's my opinion, audio hobbyist should know the flavor of sound their system has with copper cables before purchasing cables or one will find themselves as throwing jello to the wall to see if it's sticks. Persons never wants to spend good money often on cables and then turn around and have to get rid of them so soon as they have some of the biggest markups in all of audio. Pick your cables wisely....and please don't believe the hype that preaches all cables sound alike, or zip cord is just as good. I call poppycock on such foolishness.

 

[able.baker]

All I know is, my hearing is so bad I don't have to worry about any of this! But it would be interesting to to see the results of some double blind research on the subject. For me - wire connects components - sound comes out. Done.

 

[MikeT.]

In the almost three years of updating my system I have not found a "signature" silver sound. The bulk of my experience has come from speaker cable comparisons, with a few interconnects thrown in and several digital cables as well.

Cardas Clear Sky, Acoustic Zen Satori...both fine cables but uninteresting.
DH Labs Silversonics were shrill and I couldn't stay in the same room with them.
Van den Hul D-352 (silver/copper hybrid) were flat with a slightly compressed high end, they didn't last long.
Audience au24, ugh, boring with a rolled off high end.
Shunyata Black Mamba did everything just right but money needs came first so off they went.

Digital cables of several types really made little difference until I came upon Black Cat Silverstar 75ohm digital, and Oscar described it best, with snap and definition I had not heard from any other. Now I have two of them:yes:
Tara Labs are stellar performers ( no affiliation) in both IC and speaker cables, yes both copper. Not so impressed with their digital cable for the price.
Nordost Red Dawn hybrid, really good on all counts. I've still got them but trying to figure out if they go to make room for other gear.

Naim NAC A5 copper speaker wire is "relatively" inexpensive and sounds VERY good. Dynamic and revealing. (All copper)
Power cables from MIT, Shunyata, Wire World came and went. I have found a absolute bargain (for my ears mind you) in Wyred4Sound power cables. I have a 10 footer that is just spectacular and didn't break the bank. They will ultimately power everything in my system.

The Cable Company, as Oscar has stated has saved me tons of money, and ultimately opened a door for an incredible variety for audition.
Byron is right in that there is no substitute for good research and ultimately the listening test.

Like almost everything in this hobby, what's right for me probably is not going to be perfect for anyone else but just having a variety of opinions is valuable as part of any research you do. But a "silver hybrid" sound signature in my experience just doesn't exist.

I'll be reading Oscars opinions for the USB trial he has underway as that's the next step but I couldn't help myself with an opinion or two about cables. I'm an unabashed believer in cables being a critical element of any system.