I give up on Vintage

[pingu_turbo]

JohnVF, that is one hell of a list you posted earlier! I'm taken back by it. :drool:

I enjoy my 'vintage' kit. It started out for me with an inherited marantz 2230 from my late Grandad. I loved the sound so much I decided to refurbish it. I have since then bought other pieces of 'vintage' kit that were cheap enough, just so I could refurb and fix them. On the whole I have never had a failiour yet, but I do have one or two units in reserve/rotation for just such a circumstance. The only one I would be upset about is the 2230, if it were to die on me.

The newest piece of kit I own is a 2.1 av receiver. A NAD viso 2. It's lovely looking, weighs a ton and sounds crystal clear. My only gripe with it is its reliability. It has gone through 2 DVD drives and now it has a non turning on issue. Standby yes, working, no. What frustrates me about this viso is the fact that there is NO readily available information on it. I cannot fix it myself, and I can ill afford to send it to a tech for a fix up. To me I am more pissed off about this unit failing and my inability to repair it than if one of my older more simple units to fail. I feel like I have been kicked in the balls, ffs it isn't even 4 years old yet and it wasn't cheap when new.

For me this hobby is 40% about the fixing/restoring and 60% about the listening. The older vintage units (apart from being affordable to me) is the readily available information and the ability to read and understand the problems.

Don't get me wrong I absolutely love an evening of chilling out and listening, but I also love taxing the brain and troubleshooting and ultimately reeping the fruits of my hard work.

I know this is not for everyone, but this is my take on it. It isn't meant as a direct attack at any previous post, and I fully respect everything else that has been said. After all we all get something different out of this hobby. :thmbsp:

 

[jstang]

I fail, you fail , we all fail fail fail fail .......

I failed to clean my basement for many years...

I failed to see the doctor for my torn acl for many years....

I succeeded in not blaming my wife for both of those issues....because she would fail to see the humor in it and would be very harsh on me.

Maybe being too harsh is true... But we and the things around us fail all the time ( includes 40 year old gear ). It's a failure to not accept it and try to understand.....and we succeed all the time too.... But let's be fair in the process.

And you fail to see the claim "vintage is not worth the effort" as not being provocative? Did you just fail?

 

[icenine]

Well my power switch on my Fisher 440T just died last night.....lol

 

[bktheking]

So fix it!

 

[foppy]

Seems to me, a lurker on this site mostly, that both sides have their thumpers.

Many of the guys who love new equipment reliably show up on these th

 

[foppy]

Seems to me, a lurker on this site mostly, that both sides have their thumpers.

Many of the guys who love new equipment reliably show up on these these threads and testify, brothers and sisters. Usually with the zeal of the converted, having seen the light after wandering in the valley of the shadow of vintage.

 

[Daunia 70]

It's worth remembering when buying most (described as working) vintage gear on Ebay,a 1 or 2 year square trade warranty is usually available (on Ebay UK anyway),which is very inexpensive.Never bothered myself,but thinking about it,it is a sensible thing to do.

 

[Brett a]

Seems to me, a lurker on this site mostly, that both sides have their thumpers.

Many of the guys who love new equipment reliably show up on these these threads and testify, brothers and sisters. Usually with the zeal of the converted, having seen the light after wandering in the valley of the shadow of vintage.

Right on brother! I'm feelin' it!

 

[jstang]

Well that is the point... Not setting up a well thought out goal that appears to be achievable with what you want to spend in time and money leads to disappointment, wasted effort and money....

Notice I used disappointment not failure.....

I think it's a matter of personal worldview. I wasn't conditioned to see life as a binary fail/succeed proposition.

I see that if you bring a goal-oriented view to the hobby then I suppose "fail" would be an appropriate word.

It's just in my many decades of loving audio equipment, I've failed to find vintage gear that performs as well as modern. So for me it's never been about reliability. It's been entirely about performance. You just can't beat new gear for clear, accurate delivery. IME.

 

[Brett a]

Again with the "goal orientation" !

Well that is the point... Not setting up a well thought out goal that appears to be achievable with what you want to spend in time and money leads to disappointment, wasted effort and money....

Notice I used disappointment not failure.....

Those are all subjective, emotional experiences and as such are completely personal and not universal.

I left the realm of vintage b/c once i started making enough money to spend a few grand on a system, I found a much higher level of performance than was achievable with old silver-faced gear and speakers from the last century.

That in no way means I was disappointed with the vintage gear or that any of the time and money i spent with it was wasted.

It is possible to navigate all these experiences enjoying every step, w/o feeling like you wasted time or money.

Again, it all depends on how you look at it.

 

[onemug]

Again with the "goal orientation" !

Those are all subjective, emotional experiences and as such are completely personal and not universal.

I left the realm of vintage b/c once i started making enough money to spend a few grand on a system, I found a much higher level of performance than was achievable with old silver-faced gear and speakers from the last century.

That in no way means I was disappointed with the vintage gear or that any of the time and money i spent with it was wasted.

It is possible to navigate all these experiences enjoying every step, w/o feeling like you wasted time or money.

Again, it all depends on how you look at it.

Well said.

Here is a favorite quote of mine from a Zen Master:

"Someone recently asked me what my dying words would be, what would I offer the people? What came up to me immediately — "It's just your opinion." If we just think of all this as our opinions and play with those, instead of going to war over them, that's the thing. If you can just start there."

I say, more play/less war. Find out what motivates you and have some confidence in it.

 

[jstang]

That would be commonly known as a " learning experience".
,

Again with the "goal orientation" !

Those are all subjective, emotional experiences and as such are completely personal and not universal.

I left the realm of vintage b/c once i started making enough money to spend a few grand on a system, I found a much higher level of performance than was achievable with old silver-faced gear and speakers from the last century.

That in no way means I was disappointed with the vintage gear or that any of the time and money i spent with it was wasted.

It is possible to navigate all these experiences enjoying every step, w/o feeling like you wasted time or money.

Again, it all depends on how you look at it.

 

[Rowrbazzle]

I fail, you fail , we all fail fail fail fail .......

I failed to clean my basement for many years...

I failed to see the doctor for my torn acl for many years....

I succeeded in not blaming my wife for both of those issues....because she would fail to see the humor in it and would be very harsh on me.

Maybe being too harsh is true... But we and the things around us fail all the time ( includes 40 year old gear ). It's a failure to not accept it and try to understand.....and we succeed all the time too.... But let's be fair in the process.

And you fail to see the claim "vintage is not worth the effort" as not being provocative? Did you just fail?

Did I say that "vintage is not worth the effort'? I hope not. If I did, then I clearly failed in my attempt at not being provocative. But even if I didn't, I apparently failed to address failure as part of the general human condition, as well as one of the basic the laws of physics (entropy, you know -- which is just another word for failure, or for "nothing left to lose." Oh wait, that's 'freedom."

Anyway, I see that you're from New Jersey, so you can say "failure." I'm from the Left Coast, so I have to say "unrealistic expectations." It's part of the unwritten code.

 

[jstang]

No you did not.....

Love the "unrealistic expectations", setting realistic expectations is critical to avoiding failure.

Did I say that "vintage is not worth the effort'? I hope not. If I did, then I clearly failed in my attempt at not being provocative. But even if I didn't, I apparently failed to address failure as part of the general human condition, as well as one of the basic the laws of physics (entropy, you know -- which is just another word for failure, or for "nothing left to lose." Oh wait, that's 'freedom."

Anyway, I see that you're from New Jersey, so you can say "failure." I'm from the Left Coast, so I have to say "unrealistic expectations." It's part of the unwritten code.

 

[jstang]

Ah.... Just put some Silmics in the vintage unit and call it a day....

Seems to me, a lurker on this site mostly, that both sides have their thumpers.

Many of the guys who love new equipment reliably show up on these these threads and testify, brothers and sisters. Usually with the zeal of the converted, having seen the light after wandering in the valley of the shadow of vintage.

 

[Son-of-Vere]

I haven't been able to read every post but there is one point that seems to be missing.

I you want to listen to something that is analog from the needle to your speakers, you almost have to have old gear. The relatively new bottom of the line Sherwood amp I have processes the tone digitally. So does my Yamaha home theater receiver. I can't speak for every manufacture but I bet they all process signal at one point or another digitally.
If all you listen to is cd's and mp3's then new gear probably is fine. It's lived in the digital realm once, what's another time thru gonna' hurt?
But I know what a cymbal sounds like, I usually have a drummer banging one in my ear while I'm clipping mics to his kit. I'd like to hear stuff that resembles that every once in a while.

Scored some Marantz stuff recently (3250 &170DC) and I can't wait to hear it. And yes, it's blown up and needs repair!

 

[jstang]

Your mileage may vary.... But I advise against reading every post...it's not worth it.

I haven't been able to read every post but there is one point that seems to be missing.

Your mileage may vary.... But I advise you do repair it....it's worth it.

I Scored some Marantz stuff recently (3250 &170DC) and I can't wait to hear it. And yes, it's blown up and needs repair!

 

[Sam Cogley]

My favorite amp here was an Dynaco Stereo 70 that a friend rebuilt. He ran it for awhile, then another friend ran it, then I ended up with it. It sounded better than any amp here, whatever he did to it, until the night I was sitting here and smoke started coming out of it.

THAT is what we're talking about. The frustration, to me, of my favorite amp just going up in smoke because its old. No matter what any of you can say, you can't make an 50 year old amp 100% brand-new again. And that is all this is. I'm not saying vintage sucks, I'm saying the frustration of running it has begun to outweigh the joy of listening to it.

It didn't go up in smoke because it's old. It went up in smoke because Dynaco under-speced the PT...like they did on all of their amps. I think Triode sells an upgraded version that will put out the correct voltages but not melt.

Who says I'm trying to paint everybody with this brush? Nobody's attacking your take on the hobby. They're just saying its not universal, in the face of an audio site that over and over rams it down members throats that it should be...universal.

MAC-1900. FM stereo went out. Aging caps leading hiss. Needs rebuild. Cost for the total rebuild (with modifications and best parts) that I've looked at: $600-$700. Service to get back to basic functionality with no promise of future reliability, certainly less $$ but unit would be out of my hands for several months.

Fisher SA-300. Recapped but still developed loud transformer hum and sound was not up-to-date with the quality of parts used in the recap. Unit traded as the original cost and tech bill was about to exceed the unit's resale value.

Sansui Au-x901. Amp section fine. Preamp slightly muddy sound compared to friend's serviced unit. Phono drops channel after 15 minutes of playing. Needs a thorough cleaning at the least, costly tech service at most.

Dynaco Stereo 70. Up in smoke. Probably minor issue but could have been worse if amp was unattended when it blew up, which doesn't speak for future listening comfort.

Dynaco Mk IIIs. Same as Stereo 70. Both the 70 and Mk IIIs had been thoroughly rebuilt, just not 100% parts replacement.

Sansui 9090db. Lights went out in the tuner soon after tech visit. Sounds ok.

Pioneer PL-630. Speed went haywire, thorough cleaning of control pots fixed it but arm needed new belt as well. No big deal but could have used that saturday afternoon doing something fun.

Scott Tuner: DOA despite claims of seller. This was at a Antique Radio Club of Illinoise show. Stay away from those lying assholes. Biggest bunch of skeezy sellers I've ever run across. No way to check functionality at show.

Heathkit integrated and tuner: DOA despite the claims of seller. "" "". So pissed off I threw them in the trash. (They were solid state, no big loss).

Eico 2036: Serviced amp functions, phono stage is a joke and barely working.

Marantz 2275: Functions but developed hiss/hum, unresponsive to cleaning/deoxit.

Sony TA-e86: TOTL unit. Function impaired after breakage of u-joint attachment in input select. Somewhat easy repair but unit went down mid-listening, ruined evening.

Sony TA-n86 TOTL unit. Amp pops in and out of protection now once during every listening session. Probably aging caps. Unit sounds fantastic otherwise but its impending doom is almost certain unless it is serviced by a tech knowledgable with these units and that is a big ?? as 75% of the techs I've come across have been just to the left of absolutely clueless. If it works its "fixed" to them, regardless of sound quality.

Audire Legato preamp: Bad cap led to noise. Unit fine otherwise.

Harman Kardon HK-pm665vxi: Excellent unit that unfortunately needs a million tiny switches cleaned all the time.

MAC 4100: Unit functioned as found. Needed thorough cleaning. Would not have sounded its best until a thorough rebuilt which would have been more $$ than unit was worth.

Harman Kardon HK-430. As found tuner completely inoperable. But FM sucks so who cares? Nice little receiver.

Audio Research Sp-3a1 preamp: Unit noisy as found. Sent to tech. Powersupply replaced with that from parts unit from ARC (unit that had been given SP-3c treatment). Back from tech, preamp still far noisier than it should be despite attention to detail.

Luxman 5L-15: Amp slipped into protection after purchase, then out, then back, then out. Completely recapped. Got it back. Functioned for one evening, then back into protection. Back to tech. Sent to their better tech, then their best tech. Protection IC rebuilt with discrete parts. Got amp back, worked for a week, back into protection. I gave up.

Yeah, owning vintage is just a walk in the parks. Its awesome! Its for everybody!

Note that every one of the above problems, accept for the DOA units, came about in the midst of a listening session or right before, ruining the entire purpose of using a mechanical device to reproduce music: relaxation and enjoyment.

***Yes, I have owned vintage that was not a problem, the above is simply a list of SOME of the issues I've had. None of the "score" units were without problems. The only vintage gear I've had that has been trouble free has been rebuilt prior to my owning it (Accuphase E303x) or sent by me for a rebuild (Fisher 400c preamp, for example..very nice sounding unit).

New gear:

Leben CS-300x. Perfect performance, sounds fantastic.

Mark Levinson no. 432: Absolutely reliable. Accidentally shorted outputs once, amp went into protection and came right out, smiling and making music again.

Marantz Reference SC-11s1 pre: Perfect performance if not the most dynamic presentation.

Marantz Reference SA-11s2 CD: Rock solid performance and reliability.

NAD M51 DAC/pre: Perfect and trouble free. Best sound I could imagine. Cheaper and better sound than the above.

Pioneer SC-27 receiver: Perfectly reliable and great sound and convenience of room correction EQ.

McCormack TLC-1 deluxe preamp: No issues, great sound.

Klyne 6L preamp: No issues, absolutely fantastic sound and performance.

EMM Labs CDSA: Transport occasionally sticks but is due to be replaced by a better option. This is the only modern unit I've had any issue and that issue does not really affect operation, its just slightly annoying. It was a thrift find and therefor subject to who knows what type of abuse.

The above is EVERY modern unit I've owned (I've not included speakers in either vintage or new, I've had and have both with little issue). As you can see...one issue, a stick transport. The rest of the time spent with it was spent enjoying the best sound I've ever had here.

And in 20 years, all of that modern gear will start exhibiting the same problems.

 

[JohnVF]

And in 20 years, all of that modern gear will start exhibiting the same problems.

Exactly. But the fact that you felt you needed to say that suggests that you (and others) still aren't getting the point of all of this. That the new stuff DOESN'T exhibit it, is what this whole thread is about. So yes...it doesn't exhibit problems now! And that is largely why I run some modern gear. I'd prefer to run all vintage from a looks standpoint but its not as easy as that. I also look at reliability (and sound quality...which is a tossup but some modern things vintage can't match, like my speakers and my NAD DAC/digital pre).

 

[Daunia 70]

I'll give just one example, let's say you want a Sansui 9090db. They aren't particularly cheap, $300-500 or so generally. So say you spent $400 on that, now you need to get it professionally restored so you can rely on it. From what I've seen of very thorough places this can be really costly, but thorough is the only way to do it - so about $500 for the restoration. So at roughly $900 you have a restored, like new amplifier - that's old. Compare to a brand new Emotiva XPA-2 power amp and USP-1 preamplifier and you're at $1,050 - so it costs a bit extra, but for this comparatively small amount you now have new equipment covered with warranties that has been well designed, is very recent and will have no trouble locating repair parts on the unlikely event of failure.

How would a Sansui AU-919 integrated compare agains't the Emotiva power amp and USP-1 pre-amp ? (a fairer comparison)
You can usually pick up a good working Sansui AU-919 for around £350/£400 (UK),probably even cheaper in the US.I ask because I've read that you'd have to spend around £2000 brand new nowadays to complete with the Sansui AU-919,and even then build quality most likely wouldn't be as good.Even with a recap/restoration on the Sansui you'd still have a lot of change left.