I joined the Fisher family!

Discussion in 'Fisher' started by prisoners, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Even more so when I consider what overall great shape the unit is in. The tubes are all good there is no hum what so ever when cranking the volume with nothing playing, and the tuner is great with a quarter wave loop.
    I want to do a rebuild, I bought a kit but have no idea how to track down the right parts to swap out.I certainly don't ant to screw up my little gem! Any suggestions how to get started?
     
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  2. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Look on the back between the BIG TRANSFORMER and the OUTPUT TUBES and tell us the serial #. You'll need that to get the correct service manual.
    What's your skill level as far as being able to read a schematic, solder, work with High Voltage of up to 450V DC?

    There are procedures for starting up the unit during and after restorationwhich makes it safer for you and the 400. we'll get into so you do it correctly and safely for your LIFE and not blowing it up (literally the caps can explode under certain conditions). NO SCARE TACTICS. FACTS! People have died from NOT FOLLOWING Basic Safety RULES for HIGH VOLTAGE. And we don't want you to be next.

    Take off the bottom of the unit and take pictures. A general overview and then quarter the chassis doing closeup's. We can tell you what's been done and what needs to be done. This isn't going to be an overnighter. It's gonna take at least a week or two. So get in the PATIENCE MODE. There are some really good 400 restoration threads out there. Along with some sticky threads on mods and hi end upgrades over the basic stuff. If we tell you to stop, wait for something don't go off in another direction and replace something else. You'll throw those helping you off the page everyone was on. Go slow do what we tell you when we tell you and don't get ahead. Remember this is a learning experience as much as it is a restoration of your 400. Take pictures of EVERY part you remove from Multiple angles so you don't screw up the replacement. When you get tired STOP! NO ALCOHOL when working on the 400. Save it for after you're done for the night. No jewelry of any kind on fingers, wrists, neck, or other areas that can get into or drop into the unit and short it out, and possibly you with it.
    And keep your free hand in your back pocket. ONE HAND ONLY IN THE WORK AREA! KEEP THE CORD UNPLUGGED AND the plug tye-wrapped in a bag.

    Meter probes to be insulated all the way to the very tip, moreso the RED ONE. The BLACK PROBE will be connected to an alligator clip and clipped to the chassis for grounding.

    More to come from the others. It's way past my bedtime.

    Larry
     
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  3. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Larry, I just opened AK to see your offer of help, thanks. I don't have time to give you a proper response now but will get back to you tomorrow. Thanks again I am really excited about doing this.
     
  4. tnsmnichols

    tnsmnichols Member

    Messages:
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    Damn Larry, you're a skilled artist! No one succinctly frames a discussion as well as you!

    Merry Christmas, my friend!
    Tom
     
  5. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    That's the old timey(Pre P.C.) sailor in me coming out.:rockon: "Don't Ask, Don't tell":dunno: doesn't apply anymore. Screw P.C:bye:. It was the ultimate dream of most sailors I knew to retire to a tropical island, with a Nymph who owned a Liquor Store. And plenty of Young Nubile "STACKED" Native Girls. I'm retired, almost broke, and a widower. So much for the Dream.:(

    Merry Christmas Tom.

    Larry
     
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  6. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Larry!!!!,

    I know it has been a long time! Finally Xmas, family and minor medical BS is behind me, I think I have clear sailing ahead.

    I have compiled the photo you asked for, that is all but one. I tried several times to get a shot of the serial no. but the oxidation on the chassis obscures it. The number is 60377 W. I have a service manual for the later units and two schematics. I also have several plastic bags of parts I purchased from Al Pugliese “The Fisher Doc”to rebuild the 400. I have a very rudimentary knowledge of reading a schematic, it will take a little explanation to get me through that part of things. As for the physical skills and attitude I can deal. I have been a woodworker for the past 35 years and if there are two things I’ve learned first is patience. The second is if you didn’t do it right the first time do it again. I Am really anxious to get the project started, but have to say up front I will not be able to work on it every night - life is busy. So how can I get started.

    Thom
     

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  7. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    1st thing, take some round stickers and write V1 thru V17, V100 thru V102 on them. Then look at the tube sockets underneath and identify each one, and put a sticker on each one correctly. These will help you understand the flow of the signal from the input jack to the speaker connection. Take the best of the two schematics and go to Office Depot and spend $5.00 or so on an enlargement. The schematic on a thumb drive usually in jpeg format works well. If you have the manual in pdf on the thumbdrive they should be able to break out the schematic and enlarge it. 24 x 36 is large enough to see (especially with us old folks) and understand how the signal flows from one area to the next.

    When I said "We'll" I meant the consolidated group, not just me. My wife died 10 weeks ago and I'm still trying to deal with the emotional trauma. We had 35-1/2 good years, and I still call out for her if I'm not paying attention. Having said that, I'll pitch in whenever I can.
     
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  8. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Location:
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    Good morning Larry and company hope all is well on this cold morning.

    Assignment one done, all tubes labeled from bottom side of the receiver. And a LARGE (18”X36”) copy of the schematic printed. The large version of the schematic makes the wiring look orderly and logical but a glance at the real deal looks like chaos.

    Thom
     

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  9. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Move the V7 sticker up to the front edge of the chassis btwn the Volume control and the Balance control. You've got it sitting right on top of C-57.

    Once that is done, study and compare the schematic against the chassis for a couple of days. No schematic will look exactly like the rats nest of components and wires, so you'll have to suss out the location of the parts by tube and then pin # on the tube socket. The sockets are marked 1 thru 7 or 1 thru 9 for the smaller ones (going clockwise from the bottom). Same with the output tubes. 1 thru 9 clockwise. The gap is between pins 1 and 9 for the outputs. There may be more than 1 gap on the smaller tube sockets as that particular pin was used as a ground and would be soldered to the center tube. So be very careful when ID'ing pin 1 on the smaller tubes.
     
  10. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Location:
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    Larry - how is the weather out east? Are you getting the predicted snow?

    Ah - I get it V7 is the “magic eye”..... Ok that is remedied. When looking over the schematic there only eleven tubes illustrated there and I located twenty on the receiver. Whats up there?

    Then with your description of counting pins and which one is #1 does that change depending on my location of observation? I have a hard time visualizing this.
    Thom
     
  11. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    South of B'more, We got about 1/2 to 1-1/2" Nothing to worry about if you grew up driving in the stuff (Montana). But the Rednecks and the Soccer-moms are out there doing 60+ in 4WD sideways panic'ed at why it got that way. Physic's is Physic's, no matter whether you have a '63 bug with racing stripes or a F-350 Dually quad-cab, or a Jeep Wrangler.

    Visualize a clock. The gap on a small signal tube (7 or 9 pin) is usually next to one of the rivets. Looking at the socket from the bottom of the unit, there is a space between pins 1 and 7(or 9). Pin #1 is on the left of the Rivet. But flip it over and pin one is now on the Right side of the GAP. Look at the pins on the tube See the Gap between pin 1 and pin 7(or9)? This way the tube can only go in ONE WAY. The LARGE 7868 9 pin novar or NOVAL(I can't remember which is which anymore) is a larger version of the small signal tube sockets. Tubes that have an OCTAL BASE (the Bakelite bottom with real thick pins) have a locator pin in the center. It's keyed for ONE WAY. If the locator KEY is BROKE off, you can get an adapter that fits over the pins and restores the Keyway. Fortunately there are NO OCTALS on the 400.

    Seeing as this is going off topic, I recommend that this be moved to a separate thread. This will give you an individual thread for the 400, and make it easier to find, plus it allows the topic here to continue. Go ahead and start the thread and I'll ask the Moderator to cut and paste over to the new thread, from post #37 to this one.

    I made up a drawing of a 9 pin socket looking at it from the bottom. The 7 pin socket is the same just less pins. And the output tubes are the same on this receiver. Determine where pin 1 on all the tubes and mark next to the socket pin 1. You can do the same with a marker on the TOP. Alcohol will dissolve the mark when you're done. Use a cotton ball and 91% alcohol to remove it.

    Tube socket pin orientation BOTTOM.JPG
     

     

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  12. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Some light reading for you on the 400, mods, full upgradeitis, making the "Dancing" eyetube come to a standstill, Phase inverter adjustments made easy, etc.

    All of these links are in the FISHER Sticky Subforum. Then click on the "Reference Techical threads" and the rest of the links here show up.

    Reference TECHNICAL THREADS.
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/reference-technical-threads.774760/

    Most Common Parts needed for FISHERS...Sticky needed.
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/most-common-parts-needed-for-fishers.327561/

    Alternate BIAS Adjustment Modification
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....dividual-bias-adjustment-modification.601583/

    Getting the Most from FISHER FM Stereo mpx Tuners and Receivers
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....er-fm-stereo-mpx-tuners-and-receivers.708033/

    Improving the Fisher 400 Receiver
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/improving-the-fisher-400.511867/

    400 eyetube adjustment procedure wrong!!
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/400-eyetube-adjustment-procedure-wrong.687346/

    Fisher 400 owners please read....Important. concerning opt's and NFB network.
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/fisher-400-owners-please-read-important.682273/

    FISHER 400 Service Bulletin
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/fisher-400-service-bulletin.671281/

    Save the .pdf file (it's the source material for the links above).
     

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  13. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Location:
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    good evening Larry.
    Last weekend I set up the thread you suggested. I'm not sure if the link I sent got got to you. It is labeled Fisher 400 rebuild and related topics. Over the week I looked through the archive in F400 section, what I've learned is I have to learn terms and names basically a new language. And you guys have such well equipped shops - I have a VOM and a solder iron. Can you really lead me through this?
     
  14. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    My "shop" is a 5' folding table in a corner, with a O-scope (which I haven't learned to use yet!), a couple of DMM (digital Multi-meters) a VTVM, a couple of soldering irons, and a few flat cases for extra parts in the dining room of my house. If Mark the FIXER can walk me thru a SX-1010 as my 1st Solid State receiver rebuild (after a Radio Craftsman C-500 amp rebuild and a Model 10 tuner) and then the Sansui guys walking me thru a Sansui 1000A, all to successful conclusions, Plus all the guys with 400's 500B&C, and 800B/C/1800's we've walked thru to completion over the last 9 years.......YEAH! Piece of Cake......(crap.....I just jinxed the project!)

    Seriously. We've walked guys who didn't know a VOM from a carburetor spacer and got him a working unit. There is a Dedicated HARD CORE group here that lives and breathes FISHER 24/7 365.

    What we'll do is start with the power supply. I'll dig thru my pics and see if I have a late model 400 in the pile. The Early one isn't any different really. As for the 11 vs. 20, the Tuner section is at the top 1/3 to 1/2 of the schematic (going left to right) with 6 tubes. then there is the EM-84(V-7) All of the 12ax7's(V-8 thru V13) 6 tubes, plus 4 outputs. 6+1+6+4=17. 12ax7's are shown as split tubes as the 12ax7 is a TWIN TRIODE (2 tubes in one.) They are the only ones that are split. There are only 17 tubes on your unit. It's confusing until you get used to it. If th power supply is outputting the correct voltages ALMOST ALWAYS the rest just falls into place and it'll work.
     
  15. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Location:
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    OK? - I'll slip down to the basement in a bit with your explanation in hand to sort through this. Can you give me a starting point here - where does the action begin? I'm ready to try something even if its wrong. (just kidding)
     
  16. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Flip it over on it's back and take off the bottom plate. DO NOT PLUG IN. With the FRONT FACING YOU. POWER SUPPLY AREA is in the BACK LEFT CORNER (see the large orange or black dual capacitor (cardboard covered?). That is part of the bias circuit. The BIG CAN CAPS bottoms are in the square holes with the tabs popping up from the bottom. There is also one in the FRONT LEFT CORNER. That and the one on the phenolic insulator are part of the voltage doubler circuit. Across the back side (to the right of the bias circuit, you'll see 4 BIG TUBE SOCKET BOTTOMS. That is the OUTPUT SECTION. Now go directly toward you and you'll see 2 tube sockets with a shield plate behind them. These are the Driver / Phase Inverter Tubes. There are 4 .047uf 400v and 250v cap that tie these to the output's. To the right of these is a shield plate and what looks like a 3 sided box. That is the MPX'er, with the Phono section in the Front Right Corner. Going across the front is the preamp section. Between the preamp section and the driver/phas inverter section is the RF/IF Section going left to right from the trapezoidal box with the cover, straight across to the shield at the MPX. And that is the tour of the 400. Simple huh???? Get out your schematic and correlate it with the tour. Nothing looks the same, as the layout and schematic usually never agree but electrically they are the same. So you will have to learn the unit vs. the schematic. We can supply the hard stuff.

    I'll dig up some pics or take some new ones and mark the area's. Luckily I have a late model 400 sitting about 3ft away.
     

     

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  17. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Larry, I've spent some time with the schematic and your correspondence from last night. I have a grip on what you were explaining. Now your recent note is much easer to grasp! I have spent a fair amount of time starting into the underside of the 400 trying to intuit just what goes on in there. All i've really figured out is you plug it in and beautiful sound comes out.....
     
  18. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Blow this up to full size and use to familiarize with different sections.
    400 with layout.JPG
     
  19. Thom 2230

    Thom 2230 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Larry, I enlarged your photo of the underside of the 400 then red lines that you've drawn in are legible but the labels are not. Do you have a higher resolution photo?
     
  20. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    How's This

    Clipboard01.jpg
     

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