I laid down the money for a Gieseler Groß DAC today

[Nixxuz]

The sound is only ever as good as the source, and by including a remote and digital volume control it allows easy integration with a universal remote. If you're aware of a less expensive DAC offering the same I'd certainly take a look at it. The Dayton APA150 makes a relatively decent inexpensive power amp with auto on/off depending on whether there's a signal. The two together , with a universal remote will make for a system simple enough for anyone to use.

Dayton equipment continues to impress me in terms of performance for the cost. Running a pair of Dayton PS220-8's in my second system. The 652 AIR towers should be fine with the APA150.

Oh I'm a fan of Dayton. Before my QSC I was running an APA-150 myself with plans to monoblock 2 of them. And I've got 2 of the 1500's for low end. I haven't heard their L/R offerings because I frankly have too damn many speakers as it is. But the $50 AIR B652's have been something I've had my eye on for desktop speakers for awhile. I'm, once again, a cheapskate. I'd get a cheaper DAC and just run a push button RCA selector and a $40 IR volume control. Like this guy; https://www.amazon.com/MCM-CUSTOM-50-8394-CONTROL-IR/dp/B01CX82KH2. I get the convenience and aesthetics of going with an all in one, but I think the SMSL M8 has a Sabre ES9028Q2M chip and does DSD512 and up to 768khz and 32 bit processing for $250. That plus a line switcher and remote would still fall under $400 and conceivably be a better chain. But, ear of the beholder and all that. Plus, not everyone likes that many wires!

 

[mjw21a]

Oh, I've gone that very route with my second system . My brother on the other hand is very minimalist. He'll want full remote functionality and won't want to think about operating it. It would be expected to just work. Anyway, those are future plan. I look forward to getting my Gieseler Groß DAC

 

[restorer-john]

...I've generally found the Sigma Delta chips great for movies and such, though quite fatiguing for music...

The AK4497EQ is a delta sigma D/A with a switched capacitor filter. That said, I use an earlier switched capacitor based AKM DAC (Rotel) for my movie and TV sound duty and it does just fine for non-critical listening.

 

[mjw21a]

Interesting, I never knew that. Will be interesting to see how I like it then. The DAC its replacing is a Gustard DAC-X12 which uses a Sabre chip. I really enjoy that DAC. It is better than the S.M.S.L M8 much more natural sounding where the M8 is fatiguing in the top end. I haven't done a head to head with with my Starting Point Systems DAC3. I use a S.M.S.L SD1955+ Sanskrit Gen 2 for TV and movies which is its strength. All the aforementioned DAC's better it in terms of musical ability.

I'm really expecting great things from the Gieseler Groß DAC though. I'm hoping it can better the Gustard DAC-X12.

 

[pete_mac]

I'd get a cheaper DAC and just run a push button RCA selector and a $40 IR volume control. Like this guy; https://www.amazon.com/MCM-CUSTOM-50-8394-CONTROL-IR/dp/B01CX82KH2. I get the convenience and aesthetics of going with an all in one, but I think the SMSL M8 has a Sabre ES9028Q2M chip and does DSD512 and up to 768khz and 32 bit processing for $250. That plus a line switcher and remote would still fall under $400 and conceivably be a better chain. But, ear of the beholder and all that. Plus, not everyone likes that many wires!

Whilst that total cost is marginally cheaper than the Klein DAC (remember, you're comparing AUD vs USD here too), based upon my personal experience, I very much doubt it will sound better.

I've owned many DACs with a variety of different chips and implementations... a bunch of PCM1704UK R-2R, a few Wolfson WM8741, a few Philips, several different ESS Sabres, the AKMs, and a few other chipset makers. The prices have varied from $50 to $3K.

I've never met a Sabre DAC that I truly liked - there's something not quite right about the sound (to my ears, of course). I haven't heard the SMSL M8 though, so you never know... it might surprise me! Although, based upon @mjw21a 's comments above, I think it will sound exactly as I expect. The only place I'd ever use a Sabre DAC is in an all-vintage system (including speakers) which lacks in outright resolution, and can mask some of that Sabre glare. On a more resolving system, they are just too much for me.

Prior to hearing the AKM, I was a dyed-in-the-wool R-2R DAC man, as for me they nail the tonality and timbre. However, the humble Klein DAC is the best of both worlds IMHO - great tonality and timbre, with excellent detail retrieval. It's a truly fantastic bit of kit - and it's the little, less sophisticated brother of the Groß DAC which from all accounts is another step-up.

 

[mjw21a]

Whilst that total cost is marginally cheaper than the Klein DAC (remember, you're comparing AUD vs USD here too), based upon my personal experience, I very much doubt it will sound better.

I've owned many DACs with a variety of different chips and implementations... a bunch of PCM1704UK R-2R, a few Wolfson WM8741, a few Philips, several different ESS Sabres, the AKMs, and a few other chipset makers. The prices have varied from $50 to $3K.

I've never met a Sabre DAC that I truly liked - there's something not quite right about the sound (to my ears, of course). I haven't heard the SMSL M8 though, so you never know... it might surprise me! Although, based upon @mjw21a 's comments above, I think it will sound exactly as I expect. The only place I'd ever use a Sabre DAC is in an all-vintage system (including speakers) which lacks in outright resolution, and can mask some of that Sabre glare. On a more resolving system, they are just too much for me.

Prior to hearing the AKM, I was a dyed-in-the-wool R-2R DAC man, as for me they nail the tonality and timbre. However, the humble Klein DAC is the best of both worlds IMHO - great tonality and timbre, with excellent detail retrieval. It's a truly fantastic bit of kit - and it's the little, less sophisticated brother of the Groß DAC which from all accounts is another step-up.

I've found that using Western Electric 20awg tinned copper IC's tame the glare with the Gustard DAC-X12..... The S.M.S.L M8 on the other hand isn't tamed so easily so mine is going into retirement. Those are both Sabre DAC's.

So far the only DAC that has truly impressed me is the Starting Point Systems DAC3 based around a Philips TDA1543 . Sounds just right to me in a modern system . I'm betting the Gieseler Groß sounds far better though. Looking forward to the experience. Two weeks till I get to pick it up

 

[pete_mac]

I've found that using Western Electric 20awg tinned copper IC's tame the glare with the Gustard DAC-X12..... The S.M.S.L M8 on the other hand isn't tamed so easily so mine is going into retirement. Those are both Sabre DAC's.

So far the only DAC that has truly impressed me is the Starting Point Systems DAC3 based around a Philips TDA1543 . Sounds just right to me in a modern system . I'm betting the Gieseler Groß sounds far better though. Looking forward to the experience. Two weeks till I get to pick it up

The Starting Point Systems DAC3 isn't all that dissimilar to the tonal characteristics of a few of the audio-gd PCM1704UK DACs that I've owned, so I'm not surprised that you like it!

I tried Sabre-equipped DACs when I was hunting improved detail retrieval, and they definitely delivered that in spades. I had some nice DIY UPOCC solid core copper interconnects that took a bit of the hard edge off, but I still couldn't live with the sound.

A bit off-topic, but I've found the Gieseler Klein to be a superb match for the Aurealis Audio (another QLD mob!) R1 Dragon silver and copper litz interconnects. The owner/designer helped me out with some DIY interconnect design suggestions a while ago, and I was able to build a pair which sounded indistinguishable from his interconnects - to the extent that I kept my DIYs and sold my previous Aurealis cables. The bugger then procured his own UPOCC litz cable and designed the Dragons. Suffice to say, they're good enough to have made me sell all of my own DIY items.

I'm still very jealous re: the Gieseler Groß... I'm extremely happy with the Klein, but you've got me perusing the Gieseler website once again...

 

[mjw21a]

Ah, I've quite a few Aurealis interconnects in my system. I particularly like Geoff's Copper Litz (R3 CuL) cables in the analog chain whereas the Western Electric IC's are also provided by him. He doesn't have them listed on his sire though if you ask they are available. They're best with DAC's that need that hard edge removed and the treble tamed. They give a fantastic focus to vocals and lead instuments.

I also have an R1 cable though haven't really enjoyed it as much so it's in my second system.

Geoff did the set-up of an Ariston RD110 SL I had with a Fidelity Research FR-24 Mk2 tonearm some time back. Possibly the most beautiful sounding table I've ever heard, though most certainly coloured.

He also set up a Fidelity Research FR-14 and FR-64S tonearms on the S.A.M Aldebaran turntable that replaced it. Geoff is s true gentleman and a wealth of knowledge. I've had many interesting discussions with him

 

[pete_mac]

Ah, very nice! From memory, the R3 CuL are very similar to the R1 Dragon, but are shielded with copper litz only, vs. unsheided and copper/silver litz. Either of these cables are a step-up over the normal R1 with the solid core Neotech wire.

All of Geoff's cables have something different to offer, which is great for fine-tuning one's system!

Yes, Geoff's a top guy. Very selfless with his time, and extremely knowledgeable. I really should drop him a line for a chat - it has been a while!

 

[mjw21a]

Always interesting to visit him too. He was playing with some Coral speakers when I was there last. Incredibly revealing and uncoloured.

 

[Poultrygeist]

The sound is only ever as good as the source, and by including a remote and digital volume control it allows easy integration with a universal remote. If you're aware of a less expensive DAC offering the same I'd certainly take a look at it. The Dayton APA150 makes a relatively decent inexpensive power amp with auto on/off depending on whether there's a signal. The two together , with a universal remote will make for a system simple enough for anyone to use.

Dayton equipment continues to impress me in terms of performance for the cost. Running a pair of Dayton PS220-8's in my second system. The 652 AIR towers should be fine with the APA150.

The weak link here would be the APA150. I have two but would not use them for anything other than subwoofer duty. A $20 TPA3116 has superior fidelity.

 

[mjw21a]

Ok, I've had a chance to play around with the Gieseler Groß DAC a bit. Playback using 2x DSD is the most incredible experience I've ever had. It combines the sound signature of a old Philips TDA1543 with detail beyond the capability of even the ESS Sabre based DAC's. Not only am I hearing detail I've never heard before, though the soundstage is deeper than I've experienced from digital content. Despite the detail it sounds completely natural.

The thing that gets me is I'm far more aware of the changing pace and rythm with music than I've ever been before. In this area it outperforms even my analog chain (S.A.M Aldebaran + Fidelity Research FR-14 arm + Audio Technica ART9 > Fidelity Research FRT-4 SUT > Valab LCR-1) though anlog is still king in terms of smooth and open sound. Having said that it's now obvious that my digital content is rendered more accurately. Both are enjoyable in their own way though.

I'm absolutely delighted with this acquisition as it's probably brought the single largest improvement in sound I've had after my Aurum Cantus F620 speakers and Oldchen K3 amp. It's been money well spent

 

[pete_mac]

Excellent!!! Glad to hear that you like it.

 

[mjw21a]

Excellent!!! Glad to hear that you like it.

Yes, it's an amazing unit. It clearly shows up the deficiencies of every other DAC I've ever heard. It's just spectacular

 

[mjw21a]

I've been talking to Clay. Apparently he'll be retiring the Klein DAC series as he has a budget version of the Groß in the works using smaller Jensen transformers. I'm particularly interested in his progress with this. I'd love a version without remote, volume control, displays, balanced outputs though with an extra fibre connection. I'll see what he can do

 

[pete_mac]

I've been talking to Clay. Apparently he'll be retiring the Klein DAC series as he has a budget version of the Groß in the works using smaller Jensen transformers. I'm particularly interested in his progress with this. I'd love a version without remote, volume control, displays, balanced outputs though with an extra fibre connection. I'll see what he can do

Very interesting indeed!!

I'll keep my eyes peeled for this.

 

[mjw21a]

It seems that the budget version will have the same remote, screen inputs etc though uses a different DAC chip and smaller Jensen transformers. I suspect I may end up getting one for my downstairs system if the pricing is right. I've never heard digital content sound this good before.

If there's one thing I've definitely noticed it's that it's a good 15-20 minutes after powering on before these DAC's sound their best. I've never experienced this with a DAC before though it could well be because I've never bothered turning off any of my DAC's previously. It's not too big of a deal.