If The Most Respected Professionals In The Industry Don't Value Double Blind Testing......
- Thread starter Mister Pig
- Start date
- Status
whoaru99
Epic Member
As I recall, in the Harman papers I've seen published, listeners chose similarly as to rank of preference largely regardless of experience.
I would be interested to see if Timbers choices aligned or not, with the "bozos". I take his condemnation of the use of the tool to suggest possibly not, but that isn't necessarily indicative of result.
sheltie dave
Addicted Member
I am fortunate to have almost ten audiophile friends in the area who have a combination of perfect pitch, great Timbral recognition, and know exactly how a multitude of acoustic and amplifier instruments sound, in and out of tune. Most also have great to impeccable timing.
Timbers is right on two counts - Jbl's double blind testing protocol is for the birds. In most cases, single blind good testing will reveal much of what deliverables are needed, without the bs that gets generated by the anti-test faction.
Think for a minute....cancer studies are single blind tests. Hearing exams, eye testing, drug tests are all single blind, with zero bias contamination.
The fixation with dbt is ridiculous, both because it does not increase the level of valid correlation, and because most folks are tone deaf, time and rhythm challenged, and musically illiterate to a level where they cannot pick out or play a G chord on a guitar, piano, or a G note on a bass or brass instrument.
While partly based on snobbery, wanting to gain discerning opinions on gear requires a certain level of discerning ability to listen and recognize what is going on as the music plays.
Timbers is right on two counts - Jbl's double blind testing protocol is for the birds. In most cases, single blind good testing will reveal much of what deliverables are needed, without the bs that gets generated by the anti-test faction.
Think for a minute....cancer studies are single blind tests. Hearing exams, eye testing, drug tests are all single blind, with zero bias contamination.
The fixation with dbt is ridiculous, both because it does not increase the level of valid correlation, and because most folks are tone deaf, time and rhythm challenged, and musically illiterate to a level where they cannot pick out or play a G chord on a guitar, piano, or a G note on a bass or brass instrument.
While partly based on snobbery, wanting to gain discerning opinions on gear requires a certain level of discerning ability to listen and recognize what is going on as the music plays.
Last edited:
hifitommy
Super Member
i can accept DBT for speakers,,,,,IF properly done and not used as the only arbiter of final choice of design. for that, long and varied listening should be the refinement tool. measurement as in Stereophile is of course, useful but as JA found out, certain speaker configurations are counterintuitive to proper microphone placement for said measurements. the magneplanar is one of those.
further, there are some measurements that we don't know to make and some that we don't have the tools to measure. the differences between the SOUND of wires is a good example. how can you mathematically represent the depth and imaging differences, that are provable with listening? the one that baffles the pocket protector set is the differences heard between power cables. the reviewers i trust all hear those differences yet we have the parrots in the corner reciting the mantra of measurement.
DBT and measurements have their useful applications but they don't stand without skilled listening.
further, there are some measurements that we don't know to make and some that we don't have the tools to measure. the differences between the SOUND of wires is a good example. how can you mathematically represent the depth and imaging differences, that are provable with listening? the one that baffles the pocket protector set is the differences heard between power cables. the reviewers i trust all hear those differences yet we have the parrots in the corner reciting the mantra of measurement.
DBT and measurements have their useful applications but they don't stand without skilled listening.
I always get suspicious when one professional lays out his opinion and then suddenly his thoughts are the rule of thought. The designers at Martin Logans, or Maggies, or Legacy's, the list can go on and on, will never all agree on best method for test something as subjective as the perferred signature sound print of a speaker. Just because one guy makes a line of very popular speakers doesn't mean he is the end all when it comes to the best method of testing. Success is based on many other things in the audio business, hell look at Bose's success. His opinion is just that his, and while it might contain more weight based on his position, and experience, many others in the industry might not agree with his opinion. Their really is no definitive way to measure what people find pleasurable, or best, only sales records show a good strategy when it comes to product success.
Last edited:
whoaru99
Epic Member
Is that sort of mudslinging really necessary?
The same sort of statement can be made of those who offer only anecdotes and tired cliches.
Last edited:
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
Dude, zip it up; your bigotry is showing.
I don't need to be blind to hear what I like, and a/b back and forth only tells me at that time something sounds different or not.
There is also some facts that are not taken in account here with DBT< witch is all subjective at best.
Would you want the best sounding widget if it only last a year? from a company that don't stand behind their product?
How about a widget that could be a bit better in SQ and looses the DBT, but has a life time warranty and form a reputable company that's been around for decades who honors their products?
How about a widget that lost the DBT, but has a rep of lasting decades in the most demanding conditions?
If one bought equipment purely from DBT, I think you might just end up with a bunch of crap that will soon be a Widget Door Stop
There is also some facts that are not taken in account here with DBT< witch is all subjective at best.
Would you want the best sounding widget if it only last a year? from a company that don't stand behind their product?
How about a widget that could be a bit better in SQ and looses the DBT, but has a life time warranty and form a reputable company that's been around for decades who honors their products?
How about a widget that lost the DBT, but has a rep of lasting decades in the most demanding conditions?
If one bought equipment purely from DBT, I think you might just end up with a bunch of crap that will soon be a Widget Door Stop
Audio-Science- in the Service of Art
Those interested may find this Floyd Toole paper of interest.
Measurements are important, even measuring the subjective.
https://www.harman.com/sites/default/files/white-paper/12/11/2015 - 05:54/files/AudioScience.pdf
The Harman Kardon Model Sixty, designed by Toole and supposedly measured quite accurately, didn't sound so good.
Blinded or sighted.
Those interested may find this Floyd Toole paper of interest.
Measurements are important, even measuring the subjective.
https://www.harman.com/sites/default/files/white-paper/12/11/2015 - 05:54/files/AudioScience.pdf
The Harman Kardon Model Sixty, designed by Toole and supposedly measured quite accurately, didn't sound so good.
Blinded or sighted.
DougMac
Super Member
Once again, the usual suspects try to discredit the general concept of DBT by using misrepresentation, conflation and reductio ad absurdum.
Since the OP is about speakers, those who believe in using logic and common sense are capable of using measurements to narrow down prospects, then use their listening ability to choose speakers that appeal to their tastes, knowing full well they might not be the ones the test out best using pure technical measurements.
Since the OP is about speakers, those who believe in using logic and common sense are capable of using measurements to narrow down prospects, then use their listening ability to choose speakers that appeal to their tastes, knowing full well they might not be the ones the test out best using pure technical measurements.
That's the thing it has to sound good to the individual who wants to own them.
A/B, DBT, blind or not tells us nothing, in the short time it's done.
We all need to acclimate to what we are listening to over days and weeks. This give us time to go though different moods, feelings and relaxation. Different music genres and quality of them, how quiet the space is during the day or night.
If one doesn't think your mood and how you feel physically or mentally does not effect what you hear and what you like I can't help that. Swap gear in and out in a days short listening and have fun getting virtually no where, except changing the sound. So what...
I guarantee you can do this till your blue in the face, then pick a widget pulling the other out of the system. Well until you put it back in a few month down the road, and then it sounds the best again.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
Each of us has to choose which of many perimeters is most important to us. The choice of Dynamic range is only one of many. Staging is another one he chose as most important. And I chuckled when he said the bass and midrange frequencies are the most important to getting everything right. Its obvious he has spent many hours listening to and analyzing music and what parameters are necessary to get things correct. His insights on analog versus digital confirm many folks opinions. Its fun to read about the advancements being made in crossover design, and component sound. . I would like to see him design a line array. As Harmon sells European designed and manufactured units for large difficult spaces I am sure he is well aware of their capabilities. If they can conquer complex large spaces, its a shame that line arrays have not been accepted but by a few home enthusiasts.
I'm puzzled. The headline of this thread is "If The Most Respected Professionals In The Industry Don't Value Double Blind Testing...." Then one professional is named. [Later, Nelson Pass is dragged in — poor Nelson is always being dragged into something — but his comment is only barely related.]
Is this what people now call "Fake News"?
Is this what people now call "Fake News"?
HTHMAN
Super Member
There is the problem. You could design a speaker with a ruler flay response curve. That does not mean we will like them. Most of us like our speakers to be colored. Some like a bright sound, some a warm sound, other want a lot of bass. We buy what sounds good to us and that is all that matters. Many are influenced by ads, articles, reviews or peer pressure. We should not be influenced by others. Bose or JBL-does not matter as long as you enjoy it.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Two amps with the same wave forms will sound the same, period. They will be indistinguishable in a double blind test. A 10 year old Crown p.a. amp is capable of perfect square wave reproduction and costs 25 cents or less a watt on ebay. It would be mighty embarrassing to the boutique manufacturer if a listener could not tell the difference in a double blind test. Giving the customer a visual reference with bling on full display will influence psycho-acoustic perception by appealing to status. Of course, the rich guy will always say his mega-back amp sounds better than a p.a. amp. The boutique sellers are banking on this.
Several years ago, I had the top tube set up from our favorite American tube manufacturer. (Your first guess who they are is correct, but I will refrain from naming them.) The set were current models at the time and included the better tube preamp with remote control of amplifier selection. So, I was able to compare the 75 watt KT88 amp with a Chinese made TAD60 which IIRC was 6550 and 60 watts with two sets of the same speaker. Switching back and forth, they were equally entertaining with only the most subtle of differences setting them apart. In a blind test with a buddy, it was difficult to tell the difference. With visual reference, it was easy to tell the difference. If this comparo was conducted in a boutique store, they would never sell anything.
Several years ago, I had the top tube set up from our favorite American tube manufacturer. (Your first guess who they are is correct, but I will refrain from naming them.) The set were current models at the time and included the better tube preamp with remote control of amplifier selection. So, I was able to compare the 75 watt KT88 amp with a Chinese made TAD60 which IIRC was 6550 and 60 watts with two sets of the same speaker. Switching back and forth, they were equally entertaining with only the most subtle of differences setting them apart. In a blind test with a buddy, it was difficult to tell the difference. With visual reference, it was easy to tell the difference. If this comparo was conducted in a boutique store, they would never sell anything.
I think the gist of the OP is coming from a speaker manufacturer/promotion point of view.
Not being guru speaker designers, most AK'ers have/had to start from a reference point of asking for opinions about "what sounds good".
A promoter/business has to build a frame of reference by way of scientific measurements and /or subjective opinion panels whether it be from novices or seasoned listeners.
Buyers will become believers or not, depending on the hype and/or the true enjoyment of the products sound
Not being guru speaker designers, most AK'ers have/had to start from a reference point of asking for opinions about "what sounds good".
A promoter/business has to build a frame of reference by way of scientific measurements and /or subjective opinion panels whether it be from novices or seasoned listeners.
Buyers will become believers or not, depending on the hype and/or the true enjoyment of the products sound
- Status
Similar threads
