If VW deceived consumers about its diesel cars, then it has a huge problem

[whoaru99]

Let's get real here.

GM also knew the rules but gamed the system for over a decade. GM knew about the bad switches but installed them anyway. What's more, their $900. mil. settlement goes to the gov't, not the victims that died and were injured from the faulty ignition, and with the stipulation that no one at GM had to admit to criminal wrongdoing.

In fact, since the bailout of GM in '09, the gov't has been part owner of GM. I think it was 60%? So what does that tell you? The Justice Dept. was covering their own asses too.

No fines or monetary settlement will stop these giant corporations from this criminal behavior. It's merely a 'cost of doing business' expense to them - whether GM, VW, or whatever. As Ralph Nader has said and many know, the only thing they fear is jail time but they walked, and in GM's case, many families have been destroyed and people were maimed.

I am real and what I said was real. That you don't like the facts is largely immaterial.

 

[AudioGeek]

I am real and what I said was real. That you don't like the facts is largely immaterial.

That I don't like what facts? Don't invent things I didn't say.

I didn't disagree that the things you posted are true but then I haven't check those numbers either.

My point was that sugar-coating, minimizing, or distracting from this stuff isn't helping, by claiming they're "two different situations that are not really comparable", because they are similar in several ways. That's what your post seemed to do.

 

[whoaru99]

That I don't like what facts? Don't invent things I didn't say.

I didn't disagree that the things you posted are true but then I haven't check those numbers either.

My point was that sugar-coating, minimizing, or distracting from this stuff isn't helping. That's what your post seemed to do.

Minimizing? Are you fricking kidding? It was you who said what VW did was nothing compared to GM.

The fact is that these are different situations, each evaluated on it's own merit at the time.

 

[AudioGeek]

What I said in no way minimized VW's actions because it was bad enough, but you do understand how much greater a crime that killing 124 people is in comparison, right?

Now the end of your last sentence there is disingenuous and borders on ridiculous. If GM's case had been "evaluated on it's own merit" properly, some GM engineers and/or execs would have been in prison long ago.

Really not here to argue with people on this, but at least let's be honest.

 

[whoaru99]

Let's be honest here. LOL. That takes the cake, and your accusation of being disingenuous is absurd; itself ridiculous because clearly GMs case was evaluated on its own merit/determined on the facts of the case. That you don't like the outcome has nothing to do with what I said.

Here it is, brutally honest. The GM case is what it is, the fines, punishments, and settlements are basically done. The VW case is a different matter entirely.

 

[Hajidub]

Forget you guys arguing, the big question is: Can I use this latest mishaps as a bargaining chip to buy a new TDi for cheap?!?

 

[AudioGeek]

The GM's case evaluation in the end wasn't the problem. Your harping on that is like I said - distracting from the real issue there. The problem was in the settlement agreement, or lack of appropriate punishment/sentencing for those responsible.

You don't get to write it off with silly platitudes like "it is what it is". VW's case is similar in the sense that AFAIK yet, no one will be going to jail for that either.

Neither of these cases were mere mistakes or accidents. They were intentional criminal acts for profit reasons, and the punishments, if they can even be called that, are part of a larger problem of corruption and corporatism that includes the gov'ts involved.

As we saw with the peanut butter exec in Georgia, if you're a smaller fry you go to prison. But if you're a giant like GM or VW, you get to pay a fine and walk.

 

[whoaru99]

No, not if it has one of the affected 2.0L engines. They are not for sale until there is a solution.

From VW of America:

You may have noticed that we have stopped advertising our latest TDI models. We did this as an interim step while we seek the government approvals that will allow us to offer our 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI models for sale.

 

[whoaru99]

The GM's case evaluation in the end wasn't the problem. Your harping on that is like I said - distracting from the real issue there. The problem was in the settlement agreement, or lack of appropriate punishment/sentencing for those responsible.

You don't get to write it off with silly platitudes like "it is what it is". VW's case is similar in the sense that AFAIK yet, no one will be going to jail for that either.

Neither of these cases were mere mistakes or accidents. They were intentional criminal acts for profit reasons, and the punishments, if they can even be called that, are part of a larger problem of corruption and corporatism that includes the gov'ts involved.

As we saw with the peanut butter exec in Georgia, if you're a smaller fry you go to prison. But if you're a giant like GM or VW, you get to pay a fine and walk.

Actually I do get to say "it is what it is". We are a nation of laws and all of these have been or will be settled under our laws and legal processes. I understand you don't like it but that's a good reason why we have courts and lawyers, not vigilante "justice".

 

[Seppo]

Forget you guys arguing, the big question is: Can I use this latest mishaps as a bargaining chip to buy a new TDi for cheap?!?

VW USA currently does not sell new or used TDi's. But independent used car dealers might have good deals.

 

[AudioGeek]

GM's case was a total farce and everyone knows it. It wasn't according to the law, it was a miscarriage of justice. They got away with it since 2001, and if I recall correctly didn't start the recalls until 2014.

They were allowed to stall and drag the case out for years while people kept getting killed and injured. There are even people in jail right now charged with vehicular manslaughter as a result of their vehicles malfunctioning, while GM knew about it and got away with it. Justice delayed is justice denied.

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/9/18/gm_did_the_crime_drivers_do

How anyone can defend this with a straight face I don't know.

 

[finnbow]

I see no point in arguing whether VW's or GM's actions were worse. There are similarities and there are differences in these cases (and all others) and some may find certain aspects of one more troublesome than the other, and vice versa. No matter. Both screwed the pooch and both will lose considerably more than they stood to gain from their nefarious actions.

I'll shed no tears for either of them, but do believe both cases send a pretty clear signal that such behavior, if discovered, will be severely punished. You can bet that other car companies are paying attention.

 

[zebra03]

As a consumer , you can cast your vote with your wallet .

 

[finnbow]

As a consumer , you can cast your vote with your wallet .

Indeed, unless you want to cast a vote in favor of the VW TDI 2L, as it is no longer on the market.

 

[AudioGeek]

As I said Finnbow, and others who have been fighting this their whole lives like Ralph Nader have said in the link I gave above, $900. million is not severe in the least for GM. It's a fraction of their profits.

VW getting fined is not severe either, because they'll continue to make profit and replace it. The people responsible should be given jail time.

The reason there is pending legislation to specifically require criminal penalties for this is to stop what we all know does not get prevented by fines and buying your way out.

 

[finnbow]

As I said Finnbow, and others who have been fighting this their whole lives like Ralph Nader have said in the link I gave above, $900. million is not severe in the least for GM. It's a fraction of their profits.

VW getting fined is not severe either, because they'll continue to make profit and replace it. The people responsible should be given jail time.

The reason there is pending legislation to specifically require criminal penalties for this is to stop what we all know does not get prevented by fines and buying your way out.

I think a number of VW folks face possible imprisonment in Germany, if not here. Even for US laws that allow for criminal prosecution (beyond customary civil fines), the DOJ is famously reluctant to take anything but obvious winning cases and in cases of corporate malfeasance, it's often hard to prove specific criminal actions by individuals. As a result, closing the aforementioned loophole will have less impact that we think.

 

[zebra03]

Indeed, unless you want to cast a vote in favor of the VW TDI 2L, as it is no longer on the market.

Indeed . I'm sure VW would make a deal on any vehicle they have now to keep revenue up .

 

[pissboy]

Forget you guys arguing, the big question is: Can I use this latest mishaps as a bargaining chip to buy a new TDi for cheap?!?

As a current TDI owner, I am sure you can. I saw my fuel economy drop the last time they updated my ECU, and I'm sure this time will only be worse. I'm sure it will lower the EGTs to reduce NOx emissions, and a lower EGT temp will require more fuel being used. Going from 50mpg average per tank to ~40mpg is a deal breaker for me. I bought my TDI for the fuel economy alone.

VW's decision to save $350 per vehicle by not including a urea/DEF injection system on the 2009/2010 models will now cost them in fines and future customers.

 

[62caddy]

GM's case was a total farce and everyone knows it. It wasn't according to the law, it was a miscarriage of justice. They got away with it since 2001, and if I recall correctly didn't start the recalls until 2014.

How anyone can defend this with a straight face I don't know.

Only thing I know is that in the 10 +/- occasions in which the engine stalled on me while the car was in motion (a couple of times from running out of gas), never did it cause me to lose control of the car as a result in 35 years of driving. Ever.

And in the spirit of "being honest" I find the assertion of GM having "killed 124 people" a bit farfetched to say the least.

 

[usedto]

Forget you guys arguing, the big question is: Can I use this latest mishaps as a bargaining chip to buy a new TDi for cheap?!?

And there is the irony of the whole situation.

There have probably been THOUSANDS of the culprit VWs bought in the last week or so - those buyers looking for bargains, buying from those sellers who want to cut their losses. (before they suspended sales). Who cares about the air, as long as I got a deal, or got rid of a boat anchor.