If VW deceived consumers about its diesel cars, then it has a huge problem

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Only thing I know is that in the 10 +/- occasions in which the engine stalled on me while the car was in motion (a couple of times from running out of gas), never did it cause me to lose control of the car as a result in 35 years of driving. Ever.

And in the spirit of "being honest" I find the assertion of GM having "killed 124 people" a bit farfetched to say the least.

You obviously know little about the case then. Go take a look at the link I gave above to the news report. It's also simple enough to websearch the facts of the GM case.

Just because you didn't happen to lose control of your vehicle doesn't mean others did not. Drivers, conditions, and vehicle combinations are infinite. Especially at high speeds I don't think anyone would say losing your steering, brakes, and airbag are OK.
 
And there is the irony of the whole situation.

Who cares about the air, as long as I got a deal, or got rid of a boat anchor.:smoke:

On its worst day, a VW diesel can't put out a small fraction the emissions of a Dodge Cummins 3500 with a pair of gigantic smokestacks billowing clouds of black soot, the pedal being stabbed through the floor by any number of lead foot 20 somethings - with impunity.

That's the irony.
 
I think a number of VW folks face possible imprisonment in Germany, if not here. Even for US laws that allow for criminal prosecution (beyond customary civil fines), the DOJ is famously reluctant to take anything but obvious winning cases and in cases of corporate malfeasance, it's often hard to prove specific criminal actions by individuals. As a result, closing the aforementioned loophole will have less impact that we think.

I wasn't sure on the VW case. Apparently the gov't isn't as corrupted by corporate influence there and their laws are better than we have here.

It may be hard to prove criminal liability, but where it has been shown as in GM's case, this legislation would have been been appropriate.

Simply because something may be hard to prove does not mean any loophole should be allowed to exist. We know that the threat of imprisonment is what these execs fear most and would have the best likelihood to prevent this stuff in the future.
 
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I wasn't sure on the VW case. Apparently the gov't isn't as corrupted by corporate influence there and their laws are better than we have here.

It may be hard to prove criminal liability, but where it has been shown as in GM's case, this legislation would have been been appropriate.

Simply because something may be hard to prove does not mean any loophole should be allowed to exist. We know that the threat of imprisonment is what these execs fear most and would have the best likelihood to prevent this stuff in the future.

You'll get no argument from me on closing these loopholes. OTOH, I'm less than convinced that it will make much difference, due to DOJ's reluctance to take on complex, non-cut-and-dry cases. In the VW case, I read that DOJ is considering prosecuting some VW officials for lying to Federal investigators (and not for the original misdeed for which there may not be a criminal course of action). Stay tuned.
 
On its worst day, a VW diesel can't put out a small fraction the emissions of a Dodge Cummins 3500 with a pair of gigantic smokestacks billowing clouds of black soot, the pedal being stabbed through the floor by any number of lead foot 20 somethings - with impunity.

That's the irony.

Then you should get on their states for not enforcing the existing laws. I'd ramp it up...seize and publicly crush a few of these "coal rolling" trucks, leaving these redneck douchebros with a huge bill and no truck, and things would change.
 
You obviously know little about the case then. Go take a look at the link I gave above to the news report. It's also simple enough to websearch the facts of the GM case.

Just because you didn't happen to lose control of your vehicle doesn't mean others did not. Drivers, conditions, and vehicle combinations are infinite. Especially at high speeds I don't think anyone would say losing your steering, brakes, and airbag are OK.

I am very familiar with the case and commented extensively on it when in another thread earlier last year.

You are correct about driver proficiency, conditions, driver safety being infinitely variable.

However I find it presumptuous to completely rule out driver error as a possible contributing factor in every one of the 124 cases. In some cases the ignition problem could have played virtually no role at all, in others, the car could have been driven in a completely unsafe manner to begin with. You however seem content to blame GM 100% responsible in each and every incident without the slightest reservation whatsoever.

And let us not forget the driver is expected to be in control of the vehicle at all times so if you run out of gas, the battery shorts out, the coil goes bad or any number of any other things - all of which have the same result of the car stalling - and you have an accident, guess who's at fault?

So you see, I can see little difference. In fact, no difference.
 
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VW USA currently does not sell new or used TDi's. But independent used car dealers might have good deals.

Nope, its considered an open recall right now and they cannot be sold. They guy I got my 'new' 2010 from is sitting on 3 he got at auction a month ago...had to push em around back
 
Loop holes, DOJ involvement... government oversight? If you're talking protection against racketeering I do believe the scope of the problem is not being appreciated. GM... bankrupt, bail out with tax money, government ownership and appointed management? We hear about something being too big to fail.... what about being too big to challenge. The level of corruption and racketeering is far beyond executive decisions on cost to redesign versus risk assessment and must be studied to be appreciated. Give it a viewing.... and know this is the tip of an iceberg. Redistribution...what a sham. It's Animal Farm and Brave New World rolled into one narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo&feature=player_detailpage
 
I am very familiar with the case and commented extensively on it when in another thread earlier last year.

You are correct about driver proficiency, conditions, driver safety being infinitely variable.

However I find it presumptuous to completely rule out driver error as a possible contributing factor in every one of the 124 cases. In some cases the ignition problem could have played virtually no role at all, in others, the car could have been driven in a completely unsafe manner to begin with. You however seem content to blame GM 100% responsible in each and every incident without the slightest reservation whatsoever.

And let us not forget the driver is expected to be in control of the vehicle at all times so if you run out of gas, the battery shorts out, the coil goes bad or any number of any other things - all of which have the same result of the car stalling - and you have an accident, guess who's at fault?

So you see, I can see little difference. In fact, no difference.

That's right, I'm not going to give a corporation like GM any slack on this, because they knew it was a bad part for years. Again you're trying to find a way to blame the victims.


Under the terms of the Justice Department’s $900 million settlement, no GM executives will be prosecuted for covering up the faulty ignition switch linked to at least 124 deaths. The deal is the latest in a string of deferred prosecution agreements between the Obama administration and corporations accused of criminal activity.

...

The U.S. attorney has filed a statement of facts about what happened here, that in and of itself is pretty shocking. There were efforts to cover up the ignition switch defect going back as far as 2001. At one point, the GM engineer who was in charge of the switch, Ray DeGiorgio, secretly changed the part without telling anybody, and so Cobalts from 2005 and Saturns from 2005 on were safe, but cars were left on the road, hundreds of thousands of them, that still had the faulty switch, that GM acknowledged was faulty by changing the part. GM spent years procrastinating. They had various workforce—work groups, task forces, who sat around palavering about what to do. They still dragged their feet when their outside counsel told them they risked punitive damages in some of the tort cases.
...

But what GM is guilty—and the U.S. attorney did acknowledge this—of, wire fraud: It sold these cars, pre-owned compacts, as safe, even though it knew that there were ignition switch problems; it didn’t replace the switches on the cars it sold itself; it certified that they were safe to the people that bought them; and it advertised them in the media and pushed these sales.

And that is—multiple felonies could be charged on the basis of that, and have been charged in other cases that involved deadly products,...

If you were "very familiar" with this case as you claim, you'd know this. What GM did is indefensible.
 
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I missed a couple of pages in this thread, but I can tell you that this issue has stirred up the lawyers we know (a lot of them) They are already starting work on this.
 
And why they have $900M in criminal fines, roughly $600M in civil injury/fatality suit compensations, and around $3B to fix the cars.

How in hell can you possibly try to defend these despicable mass murderers? Why would you even want to try? Because they did so in a suit and have money, instead of with a gun or bomb on a street corner?

"Over all, G.M.’s global revenue for the quarter was $38.2 billion, down from $39.6 billion in the second quarter of 2014. Company officials attributed the drop to the negative impact of foreign currency changes."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/24/business/gm-earnings-soar-in-2nd-quarter.html?_r=0

That's only one quarter, so do that about times 4. So conservatively let's say $120.-160. billion revenue this year alone, not counting how much GM's assets and investments might be worth - in the dozens to hundreds of billions. That $4.5 B. you mention is like a median income earner paying a $1000. fine or their insurance premium going up a a few bucks a month.

As John McEnroe said: you cannot be serious.

The people responsible at GM need to be in the slammer for life, for the good of the country.
 
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Then you should get on their states for not enforcing the existing laws. I'd ramp it up...seize and publicly crush a few of these "coal rolling" trucks, leaving these redneck douchebros with a huge bill and no truck, and things would change.

:rolleyes:
 
I suppose it was inevitable that this topic would draw political comments. Closed for moderator review.
 
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