In setting up a sound board...a question...maybe more than one?

fyi - aker kevzep is a live sound engineer for the big touring company in New Zealand ... PM him and ask him to comment. Very knowledgeable.
 
Some excellent points PQ. Mind if I add a few more?
How about the vocalists that cup the microphone in their hand and step on and lean into monitors 'cause that's the way it's done in videos, than look at the soundman like he's an idiot cause he can't fix the feedback.
Or the drummer that unloads cases of toms on the stage and after he's done cleaning the clutter and spent an hour "tuning" his set you realize all his toms are tuned the same.
Worse than the guitar player who cranks to get his tone is the one who plays it cranked clean, and to bass players who can't hear themselves cause they're standing right next to their amp: 'your legs don't have ears'.

BTW, I've also seen a few "Pros" that can't run sound:
If the band and the soundman are wearing ear plugs you're probably too loud.
If you;re playing for a 120 patrons and your drums and 100 watt marshall amp are mic'd you're too damn loud.
If the barmaid has to learn sign language and to read lips you're too damn #$%*! loud!

One of my favorite experiences was seeing a band for the first time with a musician friend of mine.
The drummer shows up with a tiny kit, the guitar player rolls in with a Marshall half stack, the PA was just a pair of monitors set on the floor leaning against the back wall, lead vocalist running the soundboard.
We looked at each other not knowing what to expect and obviously dreading the worst.
The setup took less than 15 minutes, no real sound check. Broke into Led Zep's 'Good Times, Bad Times' and honestly it was the most perfect mix I'd ever heard live.

I do believe we travel in the same circles! LOL
Oh man the singer who cups mic and screams with his head in the monitors till his head explodes from the feedback is "the” classic poser cliché…:smoke:

PQ
 
Points/remarks well made.

Lots of body language that goes on between the sound man and the group;)...and not all good at times either.

Then if you take into account a really bad room/aud to play in...that just creates more probs that not all soundmen can handle taking into consideration some of the points that valve pointed out by his obvious personal experience in his post.

I've been playing with the idea of getting into the game as a soundman as I've always been around groups one way or another...but never in one. Having second or maybe third thoughts on it at this point.


Q
 
Points/remarks well made.

Lots of body language that goes on between the sound man and the group;)...and not all good at times either.

Then if you take into account a really bad room/aud to play in...that just creates more probs that not all soundmen can handle taking into consideration some of the points that valve pointed out by his obvious personal experience in his post.

I've been playing with the idea of getting into the game as a soundman as I've always been around groups one way or another...but never in one. Having second or maybe third thoughts on it at this point.


Q

Learning to be a “sound man” generally requires either an education in audio engineering or finding someone willing to teach you the craft.
If you learn by trial and error it is going to be an unpleasant experience for both you and the musicians on stage.(not to mention the audience)
Some community collages offer classes,churches also are a good place to volunteer & learn.
Working for a sound company & paying your dues is another.
Fortunately there is a lot of information online to teach you the basics but that will only take you so far.
Like most professions you have to put in you 10,000 hours and 10 years before you have the hands on experience nessary to master the craft. As the technology constantly changes you never really stop learning.
Working with todays digital boards & line arrays require computer skills and the line between “Live” and the “Studio" are blurring as artist try to recreate live what is on their recordings using digital technology.

Don’t let the negative comments and experiences discourage you.
As you learn the craft the better you get and the better the musicians will be that you work with.
Mixing sound on todays state of the art systems & working with talented and professional musicians can be a true joy.
One doesn’t often have the problems posted here if you work with pros. But then pros don’t trust their sound to just anyone.

If it is something you really want to do I say “Go for it!”
Here a few links to check out!
Cheers
PQ
https://online.berklee.edu/courses/live-sound-mixing-and-recording#!syllabus
https://online.berklee.edu/courses/live-sound-mixing-and-recording
 
Learning to be a “sound man” generally requires either an education in audio engineering or finding someone willing to teach you the craft.
If you learn by trial and error it is going to be an unpleasant experience for both you and the musicians on stage.(not to mention the audience)
Some community collages offer classes,churches also are a good place to volunteer & learn.
Working for a sound company & paying your dues is another.
Fortunately there is a lot of information online to teach you the basics but that will only take you so far.
Like most professions you have to put in you 10,000 hours and 10 years before you have the hands on experience nessary to master the craft. As the technology constantly changes you never really stop learning.
Working with todays digital boards & line arrays require computer skills and the line between “Live” and the “Studio" are blurring as artist try to recreate live what is on their recordings using digital technology.

Don’t let the negative comments and experiences discourage you.
As you learn the craft the better you get and the better the musicians will be that you work with.
Mixing sound on todays state of the art systems & working with talented and professional musicians can be a true joy.
One doesn’t often have the problems posted here if you work with pros. But then pros don’t trust their sound to just anyone.

If it is something you really want to do I say “Go for it!”
Here a few links to check out!
Cheers
PQ
https://online.berklee.edu/courses/live-sound-mixing-and-recording#!syllabus
https://online.berklee.edu/courses/live-sound-mixing-and-recording


Well stated, detailed and informative.:thumbsup:

As of late, I've had some groundwork experience working with the sound guy at my church. The board is on the rudementary side but stage ensemble has as many as seven to nine performers at a time.
The group contains the usual, keyboards(organ and piano), base, lead, drums and some acoustic. All seem fo be accomplished players/singers and the variety of tunes can be all over the map.

There are times where I feel the voices get lost in the wall of music and other times, where some more of the base would be needed, and of course the percussion kinda overwhelms the whole ensemble.
So, I've spent some time with the gent, noting the songs and some of the difficencies that I was able to focus on.

The soundman admits that he is trying your mention of the "trial and error" method, but puts part of the blame on the board itself. He did say that there is a new soundboard coming in that may rectify some of the sound that is being produced.

So, based on what you have shared, are the new(er) soundboards more open to the inexperienced and can make up for the lack of experience that a person may have?

Thanks to date for your contributions and the others on board as well. I'm here to learn as I'm sure others are as well.

Q
 
Well stated, detailed and informative.:thumbsup:
The soundman admits that he is trying your mention of the "trial and error" method, but puts part of the blame on the board itself. He did say that there is a new soundboard coming in that may rectify some of the sound that is being produced.

So, based on what you have shared, are the new(er) soundboards more open to the inexperienced and can make up for the lack of experience that a person may have?

Thanks to date for your contributions and the others on board as well. I'm here to learn as I'm sure others are as well.

Q
In a word no!
It is a poor craftsman that blames his tools.
If he is using the trail an error method he is still learning himself.
I guarantee you that an experienced audio engineer would have no problem getting a decent mix with a very basic analog board.
If he can’t get good mix with a simple mixer adding in a plethora of digital options is only going to add to the problem.
Having multiple options to add compressors, parametric EQ,Gates ,limiters,delay,reverb,on each channel and each buss will only make it worse.
Think of it this way I have a mediocre guitar and I am a mediocre player .Buying the best guitar in the world won’t make me a better player.

You can buy the latest greatest gear in the world but you can’t buy the experience to run it.
Professional audio engineers average around 300 shows a year.
Some do multiple gigs a day. Running sound at an outdoor festival or corporate gig during the day and another show later in the evening.
Cheers
PQ
 
Again thanks for your experience and sharing a knowledge base in this area of sound.

IF, a person could be brought in with a good background in setting up... when the new board comes in could the device be left as is when properly set?

Pretty well the same players set up each Sunday, and they don't change positions much unless a play or such is to be arranged but that doesn't happen too often.

I might add that the room is quite bright as the ceilings are quite high and there is nothing on the walls to diffuse the sound. This must also cause problems as the sound must really bounce around in this environment.

Q
 
Again thanks for your experience and sharing a knowledge base in this area of sound.

IF, a person could be brought in with a good background in setting up... when the new board comes in could the device be left as is when properly set?

Pretty well the same players set up each Sunday, and they don't change positions much unless a play or such is to be arranged but that doesn't happen too often.

I might add that the room is quite bright as the ceilings are quite high and there is nothing on the walls to diffuse the sound. This must also cause problems as the sound must really bounce around in this environment.

Q
Hi Q,
I have to agree with PQ on this, bringing in another newer ( and probably more complicated!) board is only going to add to your problems. Everything got to do with setting up a live sound system is based on taking a step by step logical approach. The most important part, after the speakers and sound board are positioned, is tuning the system to the room. You need to have a 1/3rd octave or 31 band equaliser across the system so that problem frequencies can be pulled back, creating the flattest sound possible in the venue.There are many different approaches to this, some people play their favourite CD's (or mp3's!), some use pink noise and spectrum analysers to create an eq curve that will get the most out of the system in a particular room.

As far as I'm concerned the only way to eq for live sound is to plug a microphone into a channel on the board, with the eq on the channel flat, the system eq flat, and talk through the system to see how it sounds and establish where in the frequency spectrum problems exist, and then use the system eq to remove/reduce the problem frequencies.

I prefer the "One Two...One Two..." tried and trusted approach, its amazing how variations on those two words can reveal almost all problem areas in the frequency spectrum, from deep bass notes up to the highest treble! I use a Shure SM58 for this purpose because I know how they sound, and I instinctively know how my voice should sound, and with this approach I'm quite happy to tune a system from the smallest club setup to the largest outdoor venue with predictable results.

Churches tend to be very ambient spaces, and if there is no sound deadening installed, there is almost certain to be a resonant frequency in the bass region, usually between 100 - 200Hz that will require correction, and until this is done it can be difficult to hear problems further up the frequency spectrum. Try pushing these frequencies upwards on the system eq to find the offending frequencies, and then reduce that frequency by the appropriate amount to remove the problem. This method should be applied to all frequencies until all problem areas are dealt with, and a clean, natural vocal sound results. Sounds easy enough, but it takes practice! Everything else hinges on getting this right, so I'll leave it there for now, hope it sheds some light..!

Keego
 
Yes, maybe a more light than I can handle at this time...just need time to digest it. Will copy this input and what others have shared, then sit down with the guy who is running the board and work at it.

It will take time and effort.

Again, thanks to all who have contributed this part of the sound equation.

Q
 
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Another interesting exercise is to have the group play, turn off the sound system, and go stand in front of them and listen. Then go stand where the audience sits and listen. If it doesn't sound good up close, the musicians need to listen to each other and give the sound man a fighting chance. Percussion is often a challenge. Now, vocalists will have a little challenge coming out on top of a full band, but the musical arrangement and the (eventual) EQ can create a "hole" or space for them to sit in the mix. (Not the room EQ, but the EQ applied as part of the mix.) Microphone choice can give you a good head start on this.

Chip
 
Another interesting exercise is to have the group play, turn off the sound system, and go stand in front of them and listen. Then go stand where the audience sits and listen. If it doesn't sound good up close, the musicians need to listen to each other and give the sound man a fighting chance. Percussion is often a challenge. Now, vocalists will have a little challenge coming out on top of a full band, but the musical arrangement and the (eventual) EQ can create a "hole" or space for them to sit in the mix. (Not the room EQ, but the EQ applied as part of the mix.) Microphone choice can give you a good head start on this.

Chip
I think you have something here as occasionally I hear some of them, and there can be as many as 8 or 9 up on the stage giving some one another jives, but if SEEMS in fun Maybe not?

Q
 
Some real good advice being given.

In your case it sounds like the PA is a permanent install. This can good and bad. Good, because all the hard work is done, everything's already set up.
Bad, because status quo can lead to compliancy.

Go in on an a day with nothing happening and get your hands on the equipment. Get to know what each piece of equipment does.
Run a CD player into a couple of channels on the board panned left/right. Something you're familiar with that has lots of dynamics. Play with the channel EQ, AUX, gain, and monitor section. Run the music through each piece of outboard gear and hear what each does. Learn where each monitor channel goes. Understand how the crossover is ran. Learn the speaker and amplifier limitations.

Yeah, your buddy will probably not want you to change anything. You might make it sound worse than it already does. But the point is to make it sound better!
If you can make the CD sound really good, you're on the right path.
Flatten out the main EQ and drop out the offending frequencies rather than pumping up the other frequencies (negitive EQing). Experiment with the sound in the room.
Keep in mind the room accoustics will change as the room fills with bodies.

Get to know your mics and DI's. Start with checking each one and determine it works as it should, the sound it best reproduces, and the gain it needs so it won't clip or feedback. Check the mics in the monitors. Understand what the artists are hearing on the stage. A good stage mix is essential.
If you can set up the stage for your buddy and anticipate what he will need during a performance he will start trusting you and giving you more freedom.
The more you get your hands on the equipment and understand how it works, the more confidence you build up.
All this takes time.
But if you really love it, it's worth the effort.

The one thing that no one has pointed out is you are performing a service. You are there to make it as easy as possible for artists to do their thing. They shouldn't have to ask you for anything. If they are asking for something, you haven't thought of it first.
Don't sweat it, just learn from your mistakes and keep a positive attitude.
Again, confidence.
When they like your work they will let you know.
If they don't like your work you will never know.

The truth is, you will only get good by doing it. All the u-tube videos, blogs, equipment manuals, magazines, and shop talk won't make you better; only experience.
And most importantly, have fun!
 
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Number one is, does the engineer have good unbiased ears, and have tons of experience listening and mixing a lot of different styles of music, this includes not choking under pressure and knowing exactly what he is hearing
...As for setting up a mix quickly a tip given to me years back from Claudia Englehart, Bill Frisell's wife (google him if you haven't heard of him, google her as her engineering credits are world class) is this..
Plug an SM 58 into a channel and get that channel to sound as accurately like a human voice as you can with no outboard eq, channel eq only,no comps, no gates , no effects....use that channel as a baseline and add instruments in order. Right out of the gate you will be pretty close. ( assuming mics match)
Next eq one monitor the same way using outboard eq because the monitor sends are pre channel eq..
The human voice will be the most difficult source to mix correctly when the band starts playing..
In live sound if it sounds right it is right as far as eq is concerned...
As far as overall live sound quality is concerned one factor overrides every other concern and it's not even close..Great bands sound that way before anything hits the PA..Terrible bands can only be damaged controlled..

Don't eq a PA around recorded music. In a quality PA well recorded music will sound best un eq'd since it is fully produced..if it doesn't sound correct and the recording is noise free, full bandwidth, and Hi Fi ...not an MP3 file, you can assume the system has biases or deficiencies with component matching, low quality etc.

Run all power amps wide open, if you have feedback this will not be the problem..

Do all of the board setup above with your master fader set at 0 db ( not off but usually about 3/4 up the fader ...and you input trim set at unity, which is usually marked on the trim pot. Than use your channel fader to set levels. The last thing you want is the master down and the input trim way up..a total recipe for uncontrollable feedback...

This is a vast subject that I haven't touched the tip of the iceberg on so far and I deal with this almost everyday..feel free to private message me...I have a ton of experience I can use to help you with...just remember if the band sucks , so will the sound coming out of the PA...
 
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Sound boards and how they are set up have always been a mystery for me.

At the different venues/performances I've been to I've gotten to know that a soundman has to take a lot of variables into account in order to bring about the best outta the different situations. The environment factors in, the type of equipment, the sort of music played, instruments themselves, the different wants of the players, the mikes used and probably the audience as well.

To a point I can tell if the music controller is experienced if the vocals are muffled some often or one player in the band is overwhelming the rest of the performers. Some bands seem really fussy about how the set has been made.

In starting this thread I was hoping to better understand how boards are set up, and if most of the times some of the settings are meant to highlight certain instruments or is it just left to the individual board guy to deal with what he/she can. I'll bet that the highliner often gets special treatment/consideration.

Q

image.jpeg
iPad Mixing front of house and providing PA and lighting rig for KT Tunstell, monitor mixer Keith Munson is stage left using a Midas Pro 2.. KT, bassist Solomon Wilcox on ears, Drummer Dennis Weston Jr. on two wedges, Keys on an integrated personal mons set up..
image.jpg
Mixing Stephen Stills at a Presidential fundraiser last year..like his monitors very spikes at 750 and 2 K ...a sound most people hate, but S.S. Has very poor hearing..

image.jpg image.jpg

Sound checking an audio video gig for nationwide Sinclair broadcasting group executives.

I'm only posting these pics and I can share tons more if you are interested..to show you my sincerity about your questions and letting you know Im not guessing or short on experience about live sound issues, I only wanted to offer advice based on many years of field experience in every situation imaginable, and you seem like a good guy and I like interacting with AK members...

.The post I made above concerns about 1/20 th of the signal chain, so if you have any questions I would love to share my ideas with you..


Sound boards and how they are set up have always been a mystery for me.

At the different venues/performances I've been to I've gotten to know that a soundman has to take a lot of variables into account in order to bring about the best outta the different situations. The environment factors in, the type of equipment, the sort of music played, instruments themselves, the different wants of the players, the mikes used and probably the audience as well.

To a point I can tell if the music controller is experienced if the vocals are muffled some often or one player in the band is overwhelming the rest of the performers. Some bands seem really fussy about how the set has been made.

In starting this thread I was hoping to better understand how boards are set up, and if most of the times some of the settings are meant to highlight certain instruments or is it just left to the individual board guy to deal with what he/she can. I'll bet that the highliner often gets special treatment/consideration.

Q
 
Well looks like the sound board has been purchased. Should be in in a couple of weeks. Was told it was to be a "Behringer X32".

Q
 
The most important part of setting up a soundboard, similarly to EQ's, is to make sure the sliders create a cool optical design. To hell with what it sounds like!
 
The most important part of setting up a soundboard, similarly to EQ's, is to make sure the sliders create a cool optical design. To hell with what it sounds like!


Thanks Haj! Now gotta change my coffee stained shirt!;)

Q
 
You should learn what freq each instrument is dominant in, so they can be set nicely in the mix without competing with other instruments or vocals, most important for the vocals to be legible in their own beautiful space, then eq around them leaving a "hole " for them, it really takes years to be able to hear something and grab the channel eq quickly to compensate, what you have going for you today, that we never had years ago is you can look up charts on google to see what freq range everything sets in, for example, you could cut a little in 2-5khz, on master eq, and other instruments, and leave a space to boost 2-5 khz a little on vocal channel , learn your eq most important, another thing mixing drums is a art, if you are micing drums , much of the ringing can come from the bottom heads , moon gells, or papertowels and duct tape have saved my ass on a bad drum kit. Remember if 2 things are prominent in the same freq range, cut one and leave room for the more important vocal, or lead guitar , or use a freq close but not 2 owning exactly the same space and volume. You will get it, just look up the charts for eq, its fun when you get it, good luck .
 
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