Integrated better than separates? I think so...

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by ODS123, Mar 10, 2018.

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  1. GChief

    GChief AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I have to dude you on this one, dude I am as far from a cable guy as you can get! I buy Home Depot speaker wire and $5 IC’s. I just recently built all my own cables from left overs at work because due to the location of my house (a few miles from the Vacapes op area) I get USN and USCG RFI all the time. I built shielded cable for my IC’s and pwr cables and unless the Navy has stopped (not) operations they took care of the problems. It sounds like a static/buzz in the background. You can really notice it if it’s from a radar (best way to train yourself for what it sounds like), from a radar it’s just way louder and a steady cycle as it rotates. I was an instructor teaching Aural Recognition (teaching people how to listen) when I retired. If from your interweb name you live close to San Diego I can demonstrate and show you next time I have a job there. :bigok:

    :beerchug:
    Edit: In the control ckts I work on everyday you probably couldn’t hear it but you can see it on a scope. It does cool stuff like turn pumps on and off and shit. guarantee it affects consumer audio signals.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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  2. E-Stat

    E-Stat AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    What is exactly a "cable friend"?

    I'll be happy to repeat stating what I've heard for nearly twenty years. Do you understand the concept of "brightness"?
     
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  3. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    Itself at the source, it doesn't sound like anything.

    What it causes however, results in all sorts of audible effects depending on the equipment and the type/strength of RFI/EMI.

    Intermodulation issues, stability, oscillations, buzzes, hums, residual noise floor fluctuations and modulations in analog. And in digital, it's a all those, plus timing deviations, aliasing, non-linearites etc.

    Bah. I'm just going to build one of them Faraday cages and sit in that. :)

    https://www.sciencealert.com/a-tale...day-cage-to-stop-customers-using-their-phones
     
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  4. GChief

    GChief AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    ^^^ Then there is that. A little more eloquent than my explanation.

    :whip:
     
  5. KentTeffeteller

    KentTeffeteller Gimpus Stereophilus!

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    Life is also too short to not enjoy the music you like instead of better recorded music which does not appeal to you also. There's entire genres of music you can't listen to without tone controls. Forget about real Blues and R&B in general, for one. For me, music first. Gear serves the music. YMMV.
     
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  6. GChief

    GChief AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I truly listen to everything and so far have not needed mine that I bypassed. I have thought about reversing but have not seen the need.

    JMHO
     
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  7. KentTeffeteller

    KentTeffeteller Gimpus Stereophilus!

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    Do you listen to 1950's Jazz, Blues, and R&B and 1960's examples of same (and sometimes on less than perfect pressings), I do. I listen to a wide variety of recordings, some going as far back as the early 1930's. And not somebody's over noise reduced and filtered idea of how they should sound. And often pre RIAA. Not everybody's music taste involves perfect recordings, and most of us lack perfect rooms. My reality and many others needs options.
     
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  8. GChief

    GChief AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I do! And that’s the great part of this hobby, we can do it how we like. :D
     
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  9. SoCal Sam

    SoCal Sam Lunatic Member

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    All due respects to you, do not know your background other than you appear to be an audio technician and not a retailer. The other guys may or may not have audio industry connections either as retailers or reviewers. I am neither which should be obvious given my pundit position. The examples of RFI/EMI effects that have specific evidence are radar and cell phones, not audio gear. These devices are built specifically to receive radio emissions or reflections and are susceptible to jamming and interference. I accept that. How this applies to audio gear such as integrated amps, preamps, and amps is unclear from the many threads here at good ole AK and from the hundreds of audio reviews that I have read from the professional magazines and amateur reviewers. What is missing even from your description above is the smoking gun which should take the form of, "when playing this song on this gear in this specific circumstance, I hear this which is a defect caused by RFI/EMI and can be mitigated by the application of shielded cable or other applicable device." In other words, a problem looking for a solution. It's sort of like bigfoot and yowie. There are firm believers but there is no clear and convincing evidence.
     
  10. SoCal Sam

    SoCal Sam Lunatic Member

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    There is are a couple of possible examples of RFI/EMI interference in audio. Speakers and mechanical relays have magnets which presumably emit a magnetic field. Speaker magnets can effect CRT monitors. Application of shielding to the magnet will mitigate the effect. However, non--shielded magnets are the norm rather than the exception in audio speakers. If RFI/EMI was interfering with the signal, we would see that inside speakers themselves in which the wiring is almost never shielded and the crossover is in close proximity. Magnets in mechanical relays are close to the audio signal. RFI/EMI may be a specific claim made by designers who omit speaker relays but I have not read that claim anywhere.
     
  11. GChief

    GChief AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    You forgot about transformers. Good thing is I know when to give up and stop wasting my time. :)

    It amazes me how some people think audio equipment is some special kind of electronics that somehow act different using exactly the same components as other pieces of gear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018

     

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  12. DaveVoorhis

    DaveVoorhis Super Member

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    Speaker circuits are low impedance and relatively high voltage and current, so relatively impervious to household low-level RFI/EMI, though they may pick it up from outside the cabinet and bring it in. Speaker leads run outside the equipment cabinet of high impedance, low signal level separates like preamplifiers, so not likely to cause EMI, and inside the cabinet of integrated amplifiers the preamplifier signal leads are generally shielded and internal speaker leads are usually very short. Speaker relays are DC-energised, so not a source of continuous RFI or EMI, only a brief burst when they open or close. Sometimes, the whole preamplifier section is shielded, but most consumer integrateds have minimal shielding so the interference between sections could easily raise the noise floor enough to be audible.

    That may be why some prefer separates to integrated units: separates are inherently better shielded against RFI/EMI from one component affecting another, assuming the interconnects are well-shielded, and so the noise floor may be lower.
     
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  13. SoCal Sam

    SoCal Sam Lunatic Member

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    You have added nothing to this discussion.
     
  14. SoCal Sam

    SoCal Sam Lunatic Member

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    Makes sense, we can bring this discussion back to the OP's premise. RFI and EMI may be a factor in noise floor reduction but to the extent that it improves objective performance can be measured. I've seen a small sample of amps and receivers under square wave testing and seek out gear that has the best objective accuracy. While my sample is not great, I do own very good examples of separates, receivers, and integrateds that can pass near perfect square waves. Separates by far the darkest sounding with greater depth. (I hate those terms but that's the best I can come up with.)
     
  15. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    Here's an example I live with each and every day with my test gear:

    My distortion meters (analog and digital) and oscilloscopes/analyzers (analog and digital), are very much affected by RFI/EMI from WiFi, be that from my router or the PCs nearby, especially when digging down into the noise floor of gear. I must disable the network adapters in Win7 and fight with Win10 to shut them down or I get some completely erroneous readings on gear.

    Just recently I'd finished restoring a Sony CDP-101 (world's first CD player) and was disappointed to see a 'spray' of distortion right up the spectrum on an FFT which was seemingly modulating in front of me as the machine played my test discs. I repeated the tests several times and figured it had some issues I needed to explore. Dejected, I turned off the computer and just before I shut down the external PC with the FFT running, the spectrum suddenly went clean. It was the WiFi card that had 'turned itself on' in my other PC...

    I've also had nasty fuzz and idle tones caused by a Yamaha network receiver sitting near a FET input phono preamp connected to a TT.

    I now have a stick-it note on one piece of test gear that says "turn off WiFi!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  16. ODS123

    ODS123 Well-Known Member

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    Did you see my post earlier in the thread regarding this "doubling into 4ohm" spec??

    What's to stop a company from simply claiming an 8ohm output that is simply 1/2 of their 4ohm?! ..If someone does a test (like Stereophile) and finds the amp actually produces MORE into 8ohms, will they be shamed for not doubling power into 4?? Of course not. They'll likely be praised for over-performing on at least one of the claimed power specs.

    What matters (and all that matters) is that the amp remains stable whilst driving any real-world speaker. ..And nearly all modern amplifiers do this.

    Personally, I like that Musical Fidelity - who makes terrific gear - doesn't even take the bait and give a 4ohm spec. ..All of their ratings are into 8ohms. Does anyone doubt that these amps can drive pretty much any modern speaker?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018

     

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  17. GChief

    GChief AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Sorry you feel that particle everyday experiene is not needed in a discussion. I am just getting back into 2 channel audio and learning a ton as I go. I am open minded enough about things I have an opinion on to let experienced people educate me. Your stand seems to be just an opinion. Your side of the discussion is the easy hill to defend “I don’t buy it”, that would be like everyone trying to explain it to you just saying “because that’s how it works”.

    My offer of some training on this over a few beers still stands brother ✌

    :beerchug:
     
  18. ODS123

    ODS123 Well-Known Member

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    So how is the sound diminished by the use of these $.50 parts? THD? S/N ratio? How?

    Again, there is NO reason why a pre-amplifer cannot be joined w/ an amplifier into a single case without audibly affecting performance. The fact that companies choose to save their most elaborate feature sets or highest spec parts for separates is a matter of feature progression throughout a line of products. ..It doesn't mean those same features cannot be built into an integrated.

    The fact of the matter is that some audiophiles are enamored w/ having lots of components in their system, whether or not they audibly improve performance. ..Of course, since this hobby has such distain for validity controls, theres never any evidence given by the mfg. that an amp (or separating pre from amp) sounds demonstrably better, but many of us audiophiles are so easily swayed by expectation bias that we will of course convince ourselves that it does.

    Putting the pre and amp sections into separate boxes amounts to very clunky, inelegant engineering. IMHO
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  19. kvining

    kvining Active Member

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    Nope. I've never run anything other than 8 ohm loads and I've never gone past 6 on the volume knob. I push a set of Klipsch F-30 towers with it. I use it with an SA-7500ii that's looped thru an RG-1 Dynamic Expander that runs the rear HPM-100 speakers. It sounds magnificent. I have the TX-9500 tuner, wish I had the 9500ii tuner but I must say the 9500 is the finest tuner I've ever owned. Keeping my eye out for an SG-9500 EQ, altho I've used my SG-9800 with the SA-9500ii, and frankly, it sounds better without the EQ, so I moved that EQ downstairs to the entertainment room. I want the SG-9500 EQ just for looks!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  20. BillWojo

    BillWojo AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    If I had a set of speakers that dipped down into 4 ohms than I would need to know the amp could handle it.
    That is the exact circumstance that got me going in HiFi. Picked up a nice vintage unit and some efficient speakers, was happy for a few months until I found some supposedly better speakers. I didn't understand that STK packs don't care for heavy loads. POOF!
    Lot's of reading later I than knew about the importance of stability into heavy loads and looked for an appropriate amplifier to handle a heavy load.
    If Musical Fidelity doesn't post specs for 4 ohm loads than it's automatically assumed that it can't handle it safely. That is a VERY important spec and it's omission is a tell all.

    BillWojo
     
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