gonefishin
Super Member
Does anyone have knowledge on recording and manufacturing music in CD form?
thanks!
thanks!
Is anyone here associated with the recording industry?
- Thread starter gonefishin
- Start date
Mike Caldwell
New Member
Hello
What type of info are you looking for, how to record on a CD, or companies who do bulk dupliaction and packaging for retail.
Let me know
Mike Caldwell
What type of info are you looking for, how to record on a CD, or companies who do bulk dupliaction and packaging for retail.
Let me know
Mike Caldwell
gonefishin
Super Member
Hi Mike...just curious about a couple things.
"Us" audiophiles seem to be so obsessed with being faithful to the recording (the audiophile scene in general...not each individual) That's all fine and dandy...and not necessarily a bad thing either. But I wonder what the people produce our music thinks is important. Do we have the same goals in mind? Do they make compromises for reasons we don't know? Do they listen to music in their home?
Also, What process is given when cutting CD's? I would assume that they use an original master...then record the hundreds, thousands or millions of CD's off of this. But what process do they use? Is there a point where quanity overpowers quality in the mass recording process of our "real world" Cd's? I say "real world" because I believe there are always compromises that happen in real life that doesn't happen on paper...or in theory.
We seem to look at recordings as being part of this audio hobby...but what about the recording process. It's obvious that some CD's sound as if they're recorded better than others...but are there any standards? if there are...do these standards have upper and lower limits which they can freely choose from depending on output needed?
just some thoughts I had pop outta my head....thanks
"Us" audiophiles seem to be so obsessed with being faithful to the recording (the audiophile scene in general...not each individual) That's all fine and dandy...and not necessarily a bad thing either. But I wonder what the people produce our music thinks is important. Do we have the same goals in mind? Do they make compromises for reasons we don't know? Do they listen to music in their home?
Also, What process is given when cutting CD's? I would assume that they use an original master...then record the hundreds, thousands or millions of CD's off of this. But what process do they use? Is there a point where quanity overpowers quality in the mass recording process of our "real world" Cd's? I say "real world" because I believe there are always compromises that happen in real life that doesn't happen on paper...or in theory.
We seem to look at recordings as being part of this audio hobby...but what about the recording process. It's obvious that some CD's sound as if they're recorded better than others...but are there any standards? if there are...do these standards have upper and lower limits which they can freely choose from depending on output needed?
just some thoughts I had pop outta my head....thanks
Mike Caldwell
New Member
Hello
Let me first say that I am not a recording studio operator, but I do make many on location live recordings direct to cd or to my 24 track hard disc recorder.
There a lot of variables that present themselves in making a recording be it in a low budget garage studio or a multi million dollar studio, and by all means the high end studio does not always mean a better recording. As to the "sound" of a recording
that is left to the tast of the artist, producers, mastering lab, ect.
That they feel best compliments the music.
There are many technical standards that a CD must follow to be able to play in your home CD player. The same goes for the technical standards that applied to the process of mastering and
pressing of records, RIAA EQ curves ect. verse data bit rates and layers.
But as for standards to the "sound" of a recording that would be too subjective.
Some of the early CD releases that came out did have a "harsh" or unbalenced sound to them because they were produced form
masters that were ment for vinyl records and not digital CD's.
When they bulk duplicate CD by the millions they make a glass master of the original and from that it's kinda like a photo copy process, when the duplication runs are smaller they will burn copys not unlike what you can do in your computer only with many
burners all running at on time.
Hope this helped a little
Mike Caldwell
Let me first say that I am not a recording studio operator, but I do make many on location live recordings direct to cd or to my 24 track hard disc recorder.
There a lot of variables that present themselves in making a recording be it in a low budget garage studio or a multi million dollar studio, and by all means the high end studio does not always mean a better recording. As to the "sound" of a recording
that is left to the tast of the artist, producers, mastering lab, ect.
That they feel best compliments the music.
There are many technical standards that a CD must follow to be able to play in your home CD player. The same goes for the technical standards that applied to the process of mastering and
pressing of records, RIAA EQ curves ect. verse data bit rates and layers.
But as for standards to the "sound" of a recording that would be too subjective.
Some of the early CD releases that came out did have a "harsh" or unbalenced sound to them because they were produced form
masters that were ment for vinyl records and not digital CD's.
When they bulk duplicate CD by the millions they make a glass master of the original and from that it's kinda like a photo copy process, when the duplication runs are smaller they will burn copys not unlike what you can do in your computer only with many
burners all running at on time.
Hope this helped a little
Mike Caldwell
gonefishin
Super Member
Mike...no doubt that recording a CD would be subjective. The recording engineer him/her self would actually become an artist of their own. There are some great recordings from smaller lables (such as Mapleshade) that seem to have the same goals in mind as I would like them to have...to simply...record great sounding music! Many larger lables seem to take the dynamic range right out of the CD...which can lead to a rather dull lifeless sounding CD.
What have you recorded?
I'd also agree that many of the early CD's were harsh sounding...many of them actually being very poor recording on a decent medium. Now with SACD...the dynamic range is even larger (big plus in my book)...this is all well and good...but if the recording is poor...you still end up with a poor recorded CD. Outside of the recording engineer and the art of recording music...is there anything within the duplication process that can lead to a difference in the quality of the recording.
What have you recorded?
I'd also agree that many of the early CD's were harsh sounding...many of them actually being very poor recording on a decent medium. Now with SACD...the dynamic range is even larger (big plus in my book)...this is all well and good...but if the recording is poor...you still end up with a poor recorded CD. Outside of the recording engineer and the art of recording music...is there anything within the duplication process that can lead to a difference in the quality of the recording.
In addition to what the other Mike said, many record companies no longer ship out glass masters.
Instead they send out production ready mixes in DAT form and the pressing plant then cuts it's own production master from which it makes it's pressings.
Taking this control point out of the record companies hands introduces another variable to the quality of the final product.
Especially noticeable in places outside the US/Europe, where CDs often sound inferior to the US/Euro pressed equivalent.
The other thing is that many pressing plants are working to meet minimum standards , not to do the best that they can.
Down here there is a growing shift away from buying Australian/NZ made CDs. One major online seller even goes as far to state the source of their product now.
The JVC XRCD series is a fine example of what can be acheived when all aspects of the production process are carefully controlled.
And you are so right about some lifeless sounding CDs.
CD may have a tremendous dynamic range but it is almost never realized. Most modern recordings are aimed at low end users like boom boxes, portables and car stereos.
I've also found some early CDs harsh sounding but have also found some pretty good ones. In fact of those early CDs some of the best sounding were from analog masters ! I think those early CD years were limited not only by the recording techniques of the time but also the playback equipment.
cheerio
Instead they send out production ready mixes in DAT form and the pressing plant then cuts it's own production master from which it makes it's pressings.
Taking this control point out of the record companies hands introduces another variable to the quality of the final product.
Especially noticeable in places outside the US/Europe, where CDs often sound inferior to the US/Euro pressed equivalent.
The other thing is that many pressing plants are working to meet minimum standards , not to do the best that they can.
Down here there is a growing shift away from buying Australian/NZ made CDs. One major online seller even goes as far to state the source of their product now.
The JVC XRCD series is a fine example of what can be acheived when all aspects of the production process are carefully controlled.
And you are so right about some lifeless sounding CDs.
CD may have a tremendous dynamic range but it is almost never realized. Most modern recordings are aimed at low end users like boom boxes, portables and car stereos.
I've also found some early CDs harsh sounding but have also found some pretty good ones. In fact of those early CDs some of the best sounding were from analog masters ! I think those early CD years were limited not only by the recording techniques of the time but also the playback equipment.
cheerio
Last edited:
Mike Caldwell
New Member
Hello
All too often in the recording and mastering process the main goal
is to make the loudest sounding CD in an effort to make the song or songs stand out against the other already overly compressed
recordings.
If you think the CD's already have all of their dynamic range and life squeezed out of them consider what a large market commerical radio station then does to it with endless amounts of multiband compression in an attempt to make their station the loudest on the dial!
Most of the live recordings I have done take place at events that I am providing the PA system for.
What type of music do you normally listen to.
Mike Caldwell
All too often in the recording and mastering process the main goal
is to make the loudest sounding CD in an effort to make the song or songs stand out against the other already overly compressed
recordings.
If you think the CD's already have all of their dynamic range and life squeezed out of them consider what a large market commerical radio station then does to it with endless amounts of multiband compression in an attempt to make their station the loudest on the dial!
Most of the live recordings I have done take place at events that I am providing the PA system for.
What type of music do you normally listen to.
Mike Caldwell
gonefishin
Super Member
The other thing is that many pressing plants are working to meet minimum standards , not to do the best that they can.
What a shame that is
Down here there is a growing shift away from buying Australian/NZ made CDs. One major online seller even goes as far to state the source of their product now.
hopefully, by you taking your business elsewhere...the Australian/NZ companies will shift their priorities...providing you with a final product you want.
The JVC XRCD series is a fine example of what can be acheived when all aspects of the production process are carefully controlled.
Yea, even with the improvements of the SACD medium...if the recording sucks...it doesn't matter what the CD or SACD can do.
cheerio ...thanks
All too often in the recording and mastering process the main goal
is to make the loudest sounding CD in an effort to make the song or songs stand out against the other already overly compressed
recordings.
If you think the CD's already have all of their dynamic range and life squeezed out of them consider what a large market commercial radio station then does to it with endless amounts of multiband compression in an attempt to make their station the loudest on the dial!
how right you are. It just burns me up.
What type of music do you normally listen to.
Just about everything...I love female vocals, jazz, blues, orchestra, Celtic, Italian, reggae, African, Bosa Nova, older rock, easy listening (Dean Martin(ish)), Zydeco...on and on...
What influences the quality of a copy...say, the difference of what the record industry can do and what they do do...then comparing it to what a person can do...with either "home" pro equipment...or a computer.
I have noticed a larger number of better recordings coming out now, than in the late 80's to early 90's. Or perhaps it's just the music I listen to now...being alot more blues, jazz and instrumental.
thanks fer the thoughts>>>>>
What a shame that is
Down here there is a growing shift away from buying Australian/NZ made CDs. One major online seller even goes as far to state the source of their product now.
hopefully, by you taking your business elsewhere...the Australian/NZ companies will shift their priorities...providing you with a final product you want.
The JVC XRCD series is a fine example of what can be acheived when all aspects of the production process are carefully controlled.
Yea, even with the improvements of the SACD medium...if the recording sucks...it doesn't matter what the CD or SACD can do.
cheerio ...thanks
All too often in the recording and mastering process the main goal
is to make the loudest sounding CD in an effort to make the song or songs stand out against the other already overly compressed
recordings.
If you think the CD's already have all of their dynamic range and life squeezed out of them consider what a large market commercial radio station then does to it with endless amounts of multiband compression in an attempt to make their station the loudest on the dial!
how right you are. It just burns me up.
What type of music do you normally listen to.
Just about everything...I love female vocals, jazz, blues, orchestra, Celtic, Italian, reggae, African, Bosa Nova, older rock, easy listening (Dean Martin(ish)), Zydeco...on and on...
What influences the quality of a copy...say, the difference of what the record industry can do and what they do do...then comparing it to what a person can do...with either "home" pro equipment...or a computer.
I have noticed a larger number of better recordings coming out now, than in the late 80's to early 90's. Or perhaps it's just the music I listen to now...being alot more blues, jazz and instrumental.
thanks fer the thoughts>>>>>
Mike Caldwell
New Member
Hello
Once a cd has been recorded and mastered and however good or bad it may sound at that point the cd duplication process
will not really change the sound at that point.
What can happen is an increase in data errors that can give
click snaps and pops up to complete miss tracking. This all depends on the maintenance of the equipment, quality of the cd blank stock and if they are burning copies how fast they are doing it at.
I'll will you together a sampler of some of the recordings I have made featuring a cross section of music styles. Most were recorded live straight to CD a few were recorded live an then remixed.
Wait till you hear a couple of the female vocalist on a few of the songs.
I'll be curious to hear how they sounded on some different systems.
Let me know where to send it.
Thanks
Mike Caldwell
Once a cd has been recorded and mastered and however good or bad it may sound at that point the cd duplication process
will not really change the sound at that point.
What can happen is an increase in data errors that can give
click snaps and pops up to complete miss tracking. This all depends on the maintenance of the equipment, quality of the cd blank stock and if they are burning copies how fast they are doing it at.
I'll will you together a sampler of some of the recordings I have made featuring a cross section of music styles. Most were recorded live straight to CD a few were recorded live an then remixed.
Wait till you hear a couple of the female vocalist on a few of the songs.
I'll be curious to hear how they sounded on some different systems.
Let me know where to send it.
Thanks
Mike Caldwell
gonefishin
Super Member
Wow...thanks Mike! very kind of ya
I'm curious...you have a ton of nice drivers going thru your place...what's your system look like?
thanks!!!
Mike Caldwell
New Member
Hello
My home system is:
Tannoy 10DMTII studio monitors
Hafler DH200 power amp
Hafler 110 preamp
Pioneer DVD/CD player
Small by some standards, but very clean and natural sounding.
My system for live sound system, in it's largest configuration is about 27,000 watts all tri-amped mains and bi-amp stage monitors. 8 double 15 cabinets, four mid high cabinets each with two 12's and a 2 inch driver, four smaller mid-hi cabinets with two 10's and two one inch drivers. Outboard processing by Drawmer, BSS, Lexicon, ART, TDM. All the power amps are QSC & Crown.
The speaker cabinets are loaded with JBL, B&C, Electro Voice & RCF components.
Allen & Heath 24 channel mixing board, all kinds of microphones and miles of cable! Tascam CD recorder, Alesis 24 track hard disc recorder.
For some reason I still call this a hobby!
Mike Caldwell
My home system is:
Tannoy 10DMTII studio monitors
Hafler DH200 power amp
Hafler 110 preamp
Pioneer DVD/CD player
Small by some standards, but very clean and natural sounding.
My system for live sound system, in it's largest configuration is about 27,000 watts all tri-amped mains and bi-amp stage monitors. 8 double 15 cabinets, four mid high cabinets each with two 12's and a 2 inch driver, four smaller mid-hi cabinets with two 10's and two one inch drivers. Outboard processing by Drawmer, BSS, Lexicon, ART, TDM. All the power amps are QSC & Crown.
The speaker cabinets are loaded with JBL, B&C, Electro Voice & RCF components.
Allen & Heath 24 channel mixing board, all kinds of microphones and miles of cable! Tascam CD recorder, Alesis 24 track hard disc recorder.
For some reason I still call this a hobby!
Mike Caldwell
WildWest
Super Member
Yup, for full range studio monitors one can't hardly beat Tannoys. Especially in the "studio" enviorment with its typically more refined room treatments. I sure wouldn't mind having a pair. It's my silly opinion though they sound best with an analog source.
Guess it all boils down to sampling rate and amount of information eh? CD technology is finally evolving (and I don't mean SACD DVD-A and don't even bother mentioning redbook) Shouldn't be to much longer now before it works correctly and provides us with proper music reproduction. Technologies like Blu Ray http://www.matsushita.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en020219-4/en020219-4.html
Are looking very promising and may finally give us an equal sound to analog while allowing for ease of use.
Hey! Got any pics of those Tannoys?
Guess it all boils down to sampling rate and amount of information eh? CD technology is finally evolving (and I don't mean SACD DVD-A and don't even bother mentioning redbook) Shouldn't be to much longer now before it works correctly and provides us with proper music reproduction. Technologies like Blu Ray http://www.matsushita.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en020219-4/en020219-4.html
Are looking very promising and may finally give us an equal sound to analog while allowing for ease of use.
Hey! Got any pics of those Tannoys?
Last edited:
WW:
CD technology is already capable of providing extremely musical results. Players from the likes of Krell, Wadia, Burmester, dcs can perform with the best of analog at a price.
The only real problem for digital is that everytime they catch up the analog boys bump up their game and move the goalposts further ahead.
CD technology is already capable of providing extremely musical results. Players from the likes of Krell, Wadia, Burmester, dcs can perform with the best of analog at a price.
The only real problem for digital is that everytime they catch up the analog boys bump up their game and move the goalposts further ahead.
WildWest
Super Member
Yup I agree Michael. Sounds like music to me too. I don't know about "bumping up the game" and such things though. I just know about sampling rate and information available. Again, all players currently available to the public still have slow sampling rates allowing for only limited reproduction. Hey they sound nice, I've heard plenty don't get me wrong. But to my ears, information is missing that's all. As far as today's available digital formats performing with the best of analog reproduction? Hey if it works for you then what else matter right? Myself, I won't change my front end until they offer a sound to this once musician and audiophile's ears that is superior to his analog.
I have my hopes soon that something like the Blu Ray technology will finally take us there though. I do have to admit it's a hassle cleaning the friggin stylus all the stinkin time. Scrubbing and vacuming the LPs. Always checking tonearm adjustments etc. It's is a lot of work ugghhh! I would give it up in a second for an equal but EASIER sound!! Alas, my ears say it's not there yet and so I am a slave to dust... :cry:
I have my hopes soon that something like the Blu Ray technology will finally take us there though. I do have to admit it's a hassle cleaning the friggin stylus all the stinkin time. Scrubbing and vacuming the LPs. Always checking tonearm adjustments etc. It's is a lot of work ugghhh! I would give it up in a second for an equal but EASIER sound!! Alas, my ears say it's not there yet and so I am a slave to dust... :cry:
Mike Caldwell
New Member
Hello
If you go the speaker fourm and then go to page four
under the "full frontal" post, I think there on about the second page of that post. I think they were the only pair Tannoys to post!
Mike Caldwell
Hey! Got any pics of those Tannoys?
If you go the speaker fourm and then go to page four
under the "full frontal" post, I think there on about the second page of that post. I think they were the only pair Tannoys to post!
Mike Caldwell
Hey! Got any pics of those Tannoys?
