Is "Cheap" Chi-Fi Really All That Cheap/Inexpensive?

savatage1973

Addicted Member
Not bashing Chi-Fi, or trying to start (yet another) trade-war, but just a simple question--are the cheap/inexpensive Chi-Fi tube products really that good of a deal?

I was with a friend last night (OK--we were both imbibing, a bit), and this issue came up. Are those inexpensive Chi-Fi amps really all that "inexpensive" in the long-run? He has a few, and I've worked on a handful of them (for him and others), but it just seems that the first thing that everyone does is scrap all the junk tubes that generally come with them, and replace them with better NOS Euro or US tubes ($$$), and then proceed to "upgrade" or "mod" them to optimize performance--more $$$.

So, all said and done, was that "cheap/inexpensive" Chi-Fi amp really any less expensive than a comparable amp from another source? My tube amps are all US-built, he has both US and Chi-Fi amps, and even he agreed that he spent more on tubes and upgrades/mods on the Chi-Fi than what he could have bought a used US or Euro tube amp to start with.

What say you?
 
there's another way to look at this.

take an EL34 SE design (doesn't matter whether it's cathode or fixed bias) that
uses 1 Power trafo, 2 SE OP trafo, one rectifier tube, two drivers and two EL34s,
chassis, resistors, caps, AC power cord.

you can get one shipped to your door from there for about 250 (give or take),

a while back there was an abdellah SE EL34 DIY kit on another forum. was just
under 1K.

then a lot of folks buying tube audio do buy the "boutique" tubes for their low
end audio, their mid-range, and high-end units. you have 1) expensive TOTLs
from today's current production, 2) oldies like Mullard xf2s, Telefunken smooth
plate 12ax7s, EI from pre-war, blue glass Teslas (not the car), WE 300Bs,
and winged-Cs from before the sovtek relabeling, 3) use current cheap
Russian, Chinese tubes.

it boils down to cheap original units, that plus expensive tubes, or go for
broke and buy something expensive with the right credentials, provenance,
and pay for it.
 
Dunno, I bought a SEP EL34 (GemTune BL-02), for about 3 Benjamins and have been very pleased with the original tubes 2 Psvane EL 34 and 2 Russian 6H9C (6SL7) and a Chinese 5Z3PA rectifier that is probably the weak point on this thing from what I read. I haven't really been motivated to try some other tubes because it sounds wonderful to my ears as is. I'm really very pleased with this amp so far. Was curious about SET/SEP but really didn't wan't to spend the thousands that new US/European/Japanese models seem to cost and I don't have the expertise or the eyesight or the steady hands to buy an old unit and refurbish it (old fart here). I live in the sticks, there are no techs around.
 
don't read in the counterfactual. I have about a dozen Chinese-made amps,
a nobsound ns-13 (2 EL34s in SE, Chinese 6sl7, Chinese 5z3) just like
the badge-engineered GemTune) you have and it sounds fine - I bi-amp for tube
sound where it counts.

these dozen or so amps have been in service for better part of a decade and
have proven super reliable (not a single failure) whereas my last 6 dynaco
st70s, AFTER refurbing, developed problems once a quarter and I decided
that good music is better than NO music.

the Bottom line (or line 56) is that for the money, they are reliable in spite
of the TCs who claim "obvious counterfeit" Chinese parts in every unit
even those amps made in the US using US/European parts.

the OP and subsequent threads were about spending beaucoup bucks
on BOUTIQUE tubes for "cheap" Chinese tube amps.
 
He has a few, and I've worked on a handful of them (for him and others), but it just seems that the first thing that everyone does is scrap all the junk tubes that generally come with them, and replace them with better NOS Euro or US tubes ($$$), and then proceed to "upgrade" or "mod" them to optimize performance--more $$$.

I think that tells you right there, I personally avoid them, not that I need another amp anyway.

Now understand I don't work on equipment at all, maybe a little deox-it if needed.

When I fist started to look at getting tube amps I was looking at everything but wanted power as well. So I decided on McIntosh MC275 and I was compairing old used and new. My thinking was I might want two of them if needed. If I bought used they would at least need to be in the same cosmetic condition to match. Then the tubes would all need to match and they would need to be serviced to run equally as mono blocks. I decided on new MK VI amps as it would be cheaper for me in the long run.

The above is way out of the Chinese amp prices but you can buy far better amps at their price used if you shop right and learn about equipment and whats around.

I bought a pair of Vintage Amplifier Company (Known as VAC today) 100 watt mono blocks for $1500, with their outstanding original tubes. The tubes sound great and are no longer made, I have had some dead ones and found a couple here and there. These amps have not needed anything, new enough to not need service yet and are plug and play.

So now I know how good VAC amps sound, so lets keep an eye out because your not going to see them everyday.

One day on my local CL I see a newer stereo 100 watt VAC amp than my mono blocks. So I call them up and go buy that one at a price of $2500. Yes this is stepping away from the Chinese priced amps. However they also have more power in a lot of cases. They are also a lot cheaper than say a Mac amp. They will also sell for the price I paid for them and sound great and need nothing.

If someone buys a new readily flooded market Chinese amp they will never get their money back if they want to move on to something else. They can put another $1000 into it and will really take a loss.

So for me your not saving anything and really it's a loss in the long run. I would rather pay a bit more up front and have the equipment retain it's value and or gain value after I'm done with it.
 
A lot of amps/tube gear come with tubes that need replaced, if one is so inclined. Not just Chi-Fi.
 
I've been happy with a pair of Chi-Fi stuff... Pre and Amp ---> DIY Fostex FF125WK speakers

all for <$800 including speakers

Had to do a few minor upgrades/fixes but you do in fact get what you pay for

all in all sounds very good
 
I think the answer is yes, they really are that cheap, but if you want an amp filled with boutique parts and NOS tubes, "Chi-Fi" would not seem to be the right way to go.

You get what you pay for whether it's quality of metal/iron or wage of worker. Different things will suit different people.
 
Not bashing Chi-Fi, or trying to start (yet another) trade-war, but just a simple question--are the cheap/inexpensive Chi-Fi tube products really that good of a deal?

I was with a friend last night (OK--we were both imbibing, a bit), and this issue came up. Are those inexpensive Chi-Fi amps really all that "inexpensive" in the long-run? He has a few, and I've worked on a handful of them (for him and others), but it just seems that the first thing that everyone does is scrap all the junk tubes that generally come with them, and replace them with better NOS Euro or US tubes ($$$), and then proceed to "upgrade" or "mod" them to optimize performance--more $$$.

So, all said and done, was that "cheap/inexpensive" Chi-Fi amp really any less expensive than a comparable amp from another source? My tube amps are all US-built, he has both US and Chi-Fi amps, and even he agreed that he spent more on tubes and upgrades/mods on the Chi-Fi than what he could have bought a used US or Euro tube amp to start with.

What say you?
I follow these type of threads not because i am a sino-basher but because it is interesting that you always have the 2 sides of the story. Some have a good experience and others bad to very bad. Almost as much bad as good by my reckoning from what i read on the forums. That is enough incidental accounts for me to be dubious of the quality of such tube amps. I wonder how successful such a company would be if you were to plop that manufacturing company here in the usa and they started selling items out of an actual store? Does anyone think they would be able to get away with selling items with wrong power transformers and minimal quality control? If that were possible and profitable someone would already be doing it.
So, if you had a mind set that purchase of such a low cost tube amp will most likely entail tweaking and other inconveniences then that is fine. I have not read of anyone who bought a brand new CJ or Cary or other locally produced tube audio with such complaints. Of course the price differential is huge but so is the quality. I think there is a low end "middle ground" for tube audio and that is supporting a local builder. It may take awhile to sus one out and they may not give you fancy chassis work but he/she would also be contributing in other areas of a broader social context which an off shore manufacturer is not doing.
 
I suppose a lot of it depends on how good it is to begin with, and what your goal is. If the transformers and/or the circuit are poor, no amount of exotic tubes are going to fix that. I've had my hands on one or two of these things, and the physical construction was considerably lacking. Some just had way too many tubes in them. I had a preamp I fixed for someone, it had 8 tubes, no tone controls, and no phono stage. Why on earth you need that many parts I don't know. The chassis was thin and bending under the weight of the transformer, which was installed with two U-shaped bent pieces of allthread to serve as a retaining strap. It had a box over it so you couldn't see it. It was here because it hummed, which I ultimately chased out to poor lead dress. It had issues with the heater wire routing not being where it needed to, so it induced hum.
 
I've bought a few Chi-Fi preamps, but not power amplifiers. All for reasons stated above. I have found very few Chinese tubes that I like in the cheaper offerings. So at the very leased your out $$ for better tubes. Another problem I've seen and run into is the power transformers. While the 110v they use will work, in many instances I've found the heaters run too hot because of 120v+ they are plugged into. I've had to change resistors to drop the voltage. That's an added expense and time. One preamp I had the rectifier acually sang. It vibrated and gave off a ringing sound. Once I added dropping resistors to the heater circuit it stopped. With better tubes and a bit of fiddling they did sound good. I do still use a Chi-Fi headphone amp that sounds very nice, but I did have to buy better tubes. The originals were tinny sounding and very microphonic. I've come to the conclusion that you really aren't getting off cheap. I'm sure there are exceptions though. I am considering another Chinese headphone amp that seems to get good reviews. It's all tube, not a hybrid like the one I'm using. And at the price it sells for it should be worth adjusting the heaters if need be.
 
Mine has taken some tweaking, absolutely. The tubes that come stock with almost any of the ChiFi stuff I have bought are garbage. I just add that in to the purchase price, or buy without tubes. In any case, it satisfies my DIY tendencies as well as my inability to leave well enough alone. I can't mess around with any newer solid state stuff like I can with tubes. Maybe opamps, but that's about it. The Chinese stuff seems to at least give a decent base product, albeit with as cheap as possible components inside. It's fun, to me, to see what incremental upgrades do when you swap out all those inferior components. And I'm learning things along the way, so that's a bonus.
I guess I look at it the same as people who either;
Buy a Civic and throw $30,000 worth of parts into it, or
Buy a performance car as a complete package.
Buy a "fixer upper" 100 year old house, or
Build a brand new house/buy a condo.
 
First--I would like to thank all that have participated in this thread for being civil and objective (Chi-Fi can be a hot button topic). The question posed was as-stated--is a "good deal" really a good deal if you already know what you have to or want to do to it once you get it? It's human behavior--do I want to drop $1-2K on a new (or used) tube amp, or do I want to "nickel and dime" it for $500 up-front and then just keep throwing another $100 into it as time goes by? Thank you for all of your input! :thumbsup:
 
In all honestly, I did not see my amp as "a project piece" when I bought it. It's cheap to many, but by far the most expensive amp I've owned. I joined a couple enthusiast groups that agreed on certain upgrades. Those upgrades cost a LOT more if I have to pay some guy $60+ an hour to do them, and there's also the horror stories of it taking months for them to "get to it". So I started watching YT videos, doing research, and got a good friend of mine who in an aeronautics engineer to lend a hand. Now I can at least solder and desolder stuff, recognize various values and what each component is doing, etc. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I feel better about how my amp sounds because it was ME that made certain decisions as to what tubes/caps/pot/etc. are in it. I want to feel, when I am done, that nobody can look at it and say "well THAT part is subpar." I might not get into Dueland caps or pure silver wiring, but it will be something I can be proud I was a part of creating. Now, most of this is due to the fact that I simply CAN'T afford to just go grab a couple Mac monoblocks and call it a day. I could save for months and months, but I'm too greedy for good sound. But some part of me wants to say I couldn't just go buy this experience, even if it doesn't sound as good as something worth a lot more money.
 
I've owned lots of Chinese brands including Dared, Jolida, Bada, Yaqin, APPJ, Topping, Bada, MHZS, Nobsound, and more class D boards than I can count. Never have I had an issue with reliability from any of the gear from China. The Chinese don't waste money on installing tubes they know owners will replace. Although if your amp comes with Shunguang tubes they can be quite good and worth keeping. I'm impressed with the point to point hand wired Raphaelite Sinovt amps and that company is known for their fine transformers which they manufacture and sell world wide. Like it or not China has become the world leader in audio. If your gear or it's parts weren't made there they soon will be.
 
In all honestly, I did not see my amp as "a project piece" when I bought it. It's cheap to many, but by far the most expensive amp I've owned. I joined a couple enthusiast groups that agreed on certain upgrades. Those upgrades cost a LOT more if I have to pay some guy $60+ an hour to do them, and there's also the horror stories of it taking months for them to "get to it"

That was part of my initial post--how much money do you want to or need to do to get max performance, and does it "even out" in the end.

I couldn't just go buy this experience, even if it doesn't sound as good as something worth a lot more money.

I know the feeling--I built it--I modded it it, and it is MINE. That satisfaction is enough. Is it the best on the planet?-NO--but my blood, sweat and tears are in it, so it is OK.

've owned lots of Chinese brands including Dared, Jolida, Bada, Yaqin, APPJ, Topping, Bada, MHZS, Nobsound, and more class D boards than I can count. Never have I had an issue with reliability from any of the gear from China. The Chinese don't waste money on installing tubes they know owners will replace. Although if your amp comes with Shunguang tubes they can be quite good and worth keeping. I'm impressed with the point to point hand wired Raphaelite Sinovt amps and that company is known for their fine transformers which they manufacture and sell world wide. Like it or not China has become the world leader in audio. If your gear or it's parts weren't made there they soon will be.

YES--yes they do.That is the most prominent complaint about Chi-Fi--once you replace the tubes, you have a decent amp to deal with.

I have a Jolida JD-9 phono pre that I love, but I bought it for fair market value (used) and put another $500 into it, to make it what it is now. Should I have just dumped $1K up-front, or do what I did?--IDK.
 
I think it evens out. I bought it for $550 and with tubes, stepped attenuator, and recapping I've probably put another $500 into it. I haven't given many $1k amps a listen, but I'd like to think it measures up against them.
 
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