It must be all about the Pre Amp or my old Hafler 9180 is no slouch

[Hyfi]

So just as the thread title says, there has always been debates as to weather the Pre Amp is more important, or the Amp. After this weekend, I am leaning heavily towards the Pre Amp as the component with more influence over the music.

I have been kicking around selling off all my older gear to get something new. My first real audio system after my Onkyo-Infinity setup I got at 17, was a Hafler 945 Pre-Tuner and matching 9180 Amp. I used this combo for 4 or 5 years driving a pair of Mirage M790s. When I got my Dynaudio 82s, they needed more juice so I replaced the Hafler with a Stratos+.

The combo was purchased in 1992, the pre did need some work when the micro-processor went haywire and started turning itself on, changing inputs, and ramping the volume all the way up. After that it worked fine. The pre also sat for many years and needed some caps and other minor repairs a few years ago and is now paired with the Stratos and Dyns in my second system.

The Amp has been sitting idle for close to 20 years. It is still in 10/10 shape and I still have original boxes and all documentation. I was thinking I should sell it since it is just sitting. I did want to see that it was working OK, so I cleaned it up and dropped it into my main system in place of my Counterpoint.

As expected, after only being powered on for 30 minutes in 20 years, the sound was a little thin. I just left the whole system on for at least 8 hours and then started playing some disks. In normal gain, it sounded pretty decent for a $600 amp, but was still just a hair thin and very top end forward. I flipped my Pre to High Gain and everything just woke up and started sounding almost as good as the Counterpoint. The vocals, acoustic guitars, and piano were crisp and detailed. The bass was all there, just not chest pounding, but then again, that is all the characteristics of my Clearfield speakers.

Later that night when the wife went to bed, I flipped the pre into Passive Buffered mode and was able to have reasonalble volume without slam. Again I was surprised completely with the sound I was getting and just hung out for several hours spinning disks like Bela Fleck - Live at the Quick, various Riverside, Hops McCann plays Steely Dan and more.

So now after listening to my main setup with a 25 year old $600 amp, it is clear to me that the Pre Amp 'must' be the more important component OR my old Hafler Amp is way better than it was ever given credit for. After leaving it in the main setup over the weekend, my wife says "Why do you have to sell it now? We don't really need the money" Ha, so for now it's a keeper which is fine because I really want to sell the matching set of Pre and Amp when the time comes to sell.

So what do you think? And how does this play out when using just a true Passive Pre, a volume knob, and various amps. I just can't believe how good my pre and speakers made this old Hafler Amp sound after sitting idle for close to 20 years.

 

[sqlsavior]

IMO, David Hafler's products are not, and have never been, slouches. And preamplifiers have always been important to good sound, even if by way of absence.

Your post is confusing to me. Every mention of "the pre", "the amp", and "the combo" seems ambiguous.

 

[Hyfi]

IMO, David Hafler's products are not, and have never been, slouches. And preamplifiers have always been important to good sound, even if by way of absence.

Your post is confusing to me. Every mention of "the pre", "the amp", and "the combo" seems ambiguous.

The Pre is in my signature, it is a VAC CLA1 MKII dual mono all tube pre.

The Combo is the Hafler 945 Pre and 9180 amp as a set like I purchased them.

The Amp is the Hafler 9180

 

[loudnoises]

Haflers have earned their rep for over three decades through brute force and solid performance. In your face sleepers, just look how many people are still running them daily.

 

[BigElCat]

So just as the thread title says, there has always been debates as to weather the Pre Amp is more important, or the Amp. After this weekend, I am leaning heavily towards the Pre Amp as the component with more influence over the music.

In all the debates about which amp sounds better, most everyone concludes the pre-amp is more important than the amplifiers. At least that is my clear impression.

So what kind of Pre-Amp did you connect to the Hafler Amp ? I can't figure that out from your post.

Or your signature, your flow chart doesn't start with the signal (or does it) ?

 

[Hyfi]

In all the debates about which amps sounds better, most everyone concludes the pre-amp is more important than the amplifiers. At least that is my clear impression.

So what kind of Pre-Amp did you connect to the Hafler Amp ? I can't figure that out from your post.

In this case it is a VAC CLA1 MKII all tube dual mono pre, and I am using all Synsergistic Research cables, which may also have some effect.

 

[Hyfi]

Haflers have earned their rep for over three decades through brute force and solid performance. In your face sleepers, just look how many people are still running them daily.

When David Hafler had his shop nearby in Pensauken NJ, my oldest brother worked with him refining circuits and tweaking components for the kits. I grew up watching him build Hafler, Dynaco, and Heathkits on the kitchen table.

The 945 and 9180 are from the Rockport phase, but still built like a tank and like said, a solid performer.

My Counterpoint NPS400 which is a bit more refined and detailed, does not sound 7.5 better than the Hafler even tho it cost 7.5 times as much around the same year.

 

[jeremyjustic]

I'm not familiar with the Hafler amp but I would completely agree that the preamp is hugely influential in the sound of a system, way more so than the amplifier. Amplifiers are sexy, people like buying big amps and talking watts , often preamps are an after thought, it's a shame really. swap a few different preamps in and out of your system and you will be in for a big surprise.

 

[BigElCat]

Oh....wow....that pre-amp should make anything blossom.

 

[7.62]

I'm in the same belief that the preamp has the most influence on sound. I've been threw several and by far the best to my ears was the McIntosh C-26.

 

[AudioSoul]

You "threw" your preamps? Don't do that you will damage them. An F for grammar dude....

 

[BigElCat]

You "threw" your preamps? Don't do that you will damage them. An F for grammar dude....

His grammar is fine. Spelling...maybe not so much.

 

[jeremyjustic]

I'm in the same belief that the preamp has the most influence on sound. I've been threw several and by far the best to my ears was the McIntosh C-26.

Man take it from me , when you start stepping up the McIntosh preamp ladder you will be pleasantly surprised. As nice as the c-26 is the c-33 is night and day difference, so much quieter and more detailed. Great stuff!

 

[04blackmaxx]

My Preamp switch from the Adcom to the McIntosh was far, far more of a noticeable improvement then when I upgraded the amp.

 

[charles 1973]

I have always held Hafler amps in high regard based on what I have read about them. So I wouldn't underestimate them.

As far as the importance of the Pre-amp goes, I had a similar experience when I swapped my NAD 1600 Pre-amp/Tuner with the Pre-amp section of my new Bryston Integrated amp to power my Audio Design PA100 power amp. A beast of an amp for 100 wpc. I welded with it once by accident and it just went back to playing music when the arcing stopped. It was made in Canada in the late 70's. With the NAD driving that amp to power my Energy Pro-22 Monitors it sounded good, as expected. Which honestly is all one should expect, as this was not an expensive model. But when I switched to the Bryston pre-amp, The improvement in SQ was dramatic. The meticulous attention to detail had me hearing even the quiet sax playing in the background of congested music I never heard before. Not because it wasn't there before, But because it had its own space, as did every instrument like never before.

Like Hyfi with the Hafler amp, I had no idea how good my old Audio Design power amp was until I used a good pre-amp to drive it. It should of course be obvious that the preamp must be up to the quality standard of the power amp, But this little exercise just drives the point home.

This is why I like to use the same brand and series of Pre-amp and Power amp where feasible. There even seems to be more synergy for some strange reason by sticking to the same series and brand, Even though they have a standard for such things.

 

[JoeESP9]

I was awakened to the importance of the preamp when I replaced a worked Dyna PAS-3 with an ARC SP3A in the late 70's.

 

[Hyfi]

After a few days, I am still enjoying the change in sound. The Hafler has deeper bass than the Counterpoint, which I am loving at the moment jamming to "Tommy The Cat" by Primus.
The Guitars of Acoustic Alchemy sounded lifelike as did the Sax in Morphine Cure for Pain. The Bass on L.A. Underground - Larry & Lee as well as all the rest of that track was tight and detailed. Cymbals and Piano are also real sounding.

Listening now in Passive Buffered mode on the VAC at lower levels and thinking I will just leave this Amp in play for a while and enjoy it.

I also just grew some more appreciation for my VAC and just what this Pre is capable of doing. Also, the Tube Pre - SS Amp combo has just reared it's head again and it's a really good matchup for sure.

 

[Mister Pig]

Pre-amps are odd things and I tend to take the minimalist philosophy to them. At its basic function a pre amp is a switching and gain control unit. The majority of amplifiers built today can reach full output on 2 volts input, really the pre-amp functions as an attenuation to allow us to lower the volume to a listenable level. So why do we actively need to increase gain of that signal in an active circuit by 10 or 15 dB of gain, only to chop it back down at the volume pot?

Of course there is the issue of impedance matching between the source component and the amplifier input stage. Nelson Pass handles this with an active circuit in the B1 pre-amp, but there is no gain in that circuit. Everything that follows is a passive arrangement. The last couple of years the First Watt B1 pre-amp has been my choice, and before that I also used a transformer based ElectraPrint Audio PVA, which accomplished similar things via a transformer based design.

It is my personal belief that all an active pre-amp can do is degrade the signal coming from the source component. So you want one that provides just the amount of gain needed by the amp, if any, and that is all. Mosst amplifiers these days have a stout enough first gain stage that an active pre-amp is no longer needed.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Hyfi]

Mr Pig, all my gear is from the early 90s, not an amp of today. The VAC was a Reference Pc of gear in it's day and rolling tubes gives great benefits. My VAC has a Buffered Passive mode, but it is not the same as a true passive pre. I don't have one but would be interested in how all my amps performed without a Pre. I can tell you that the VAC is more than a wee bit better than the Hafler matching 945, but that would be expected in a no frills no remote, dual mono all tube pre.

 

[Mister Pig]

Mr Pig, all my gear is from the early 90s, not an amp of today. The VAC was a Reference Pc of gear in it's day and rolling tubes gives great benefits. My VAC has a Buffered Passive mode, but it is not the same as a true passive pre. I don't have one but would be interested in how all my amps performed without a Pre. I can tell you that the VAC is more than a wee bit better than the Hafler matching 945, but that would be expected in a no frills no remote, dual mono all tube pre.

There are never pat answers to our hobby is there? For instance when I owned a Rowland Model 5 amplifier, release date circa 1989, I first used it with the Electra Print PVA transformer based passive. I was convinced that the amp needed gain from the pre amp stage because it was old and from that time era. So I located and spent over $2K on a Rowland Consummate pre amp, which was from 1992 and their TOTL unit. Beautifully built two part machine, with silver contact relay volume controls, separate power supplies, and just awesome fit and finish. A $5K component in 1992. The problem was it sounded no better than the PVA, which cost about $300. I could hear not a whit of difference between the two units. But I did have a DAC capable of 4V output voltage, which was enough to drive the Model 5 amplifier, not sure if 2V would have been enough. So it depends on what the output stages of the source components are capable of, and what the input stages of the amps are capable of. Just because its old, doesn't mean an active is always required.

But I am never going to dig my hooves in the sand and say never. I am going to trial a Musical Fidelity Nu Vista M3 integrated in my system which will has an active tube pre amp stage. I don't know the gain characteristics of it, but it is active. Now its a match to the needs of the power amp stage, so its not like a typical amp/pre-amp combo that is put together by a hobbyist....so its not exactly the same arrangement. But it is a markedly different philosophy than what is behind the First Watt gear, and its going to be interesting to hear how it works out with the higher efficiency JBL speakers.

Its all a journey isn't it? And the paths we go down lead to some interesting discoveries.

Regards
Mister Pig