JBL 4412 vs JBL 4412A?

Kreshna

...but I have to know.
Well, they have different look and different crossover. JBL 4412's have wood veneer and level controls, while JBL 4412A's have vinyl veneer and doesn't have level control. But are they sonically much different than each other? Which one is arguably the better model? For example, which model is more musical? Which model is more clinical? Which one has better stereo image? Or is the difference only skin deep?

I once imagined the 4412A is better for nearfield, since the drivers seem to be packed closer to each other than those of 4412. But then again, the difference is not that much. Sadly I haven't got the chance to audition them to compare between the two. Anyone?
 
I have 4412A's. Never missed the adjustments, they always just sound right. Never missed the veneer either.

In comparing the tweeters I find the 052Ti a better all around fit to my ears. Something about the creases in the 035Ti drives me away. That and the rotted foam under the domes that makes them shrill. Taking apart an 035Ti can be done, but they were not designed to be easy to disassemble. Every one is well past it's "replace the foam" date! In a blind test, I think most people could hear the difference between a properly damped Ti dome and one with rotten foam causing there to be no damping.

The 052Ti on the other hand has a "field replaceable diaphragm" design that makes replacing the foam a walk in the park comparatively. Sadly the replacement diaphragms are NLA at this point, but as long as they are not damaged, they should continue to sound great for years. My new diaphragms came with new foam plugs as well. Changing the foam every 10-20 years or so should keep them correctly damped, so no shrillness.

Mine have been charge-coupled as well, which makes for a more revealing, smoother sound.
 
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I see. Thanks for the replies, folks. So I guess I'd look for 4412A instead, for the easiness of replacing the foam.

As for veneer, I can always re-veneer it anyway. I'm going to re-veneer my JBL 120Ti's anyway, so I could use the same veneer for the single 4412A that will be used as center for the 120Ti mains.
 
Or you could swap the 052Ti into the 4412, and clean up the 4412 veneer. They are very similar in that respect, although the crossover is different.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio Monitor Series/4412LR.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio Monitor Series/4412ALR.pdf
I couldn't find 4412 for sale, though. I could only find 4412A.

Anyway, would 4412 (or 4412A) make a good center channel speaker for 120Ti mains? Sure, the frequency response curve is almost exactly the same between 4412 and 120Ti (indicating similar voice), but can the 4412's driver layout anchor a stable center image? I mean, it's a single 4412, used as center. It's much different than, say, JBL 4410 or L80T, where the drivers are (almost) perfectly lined up vertically.



"I'm going to re-veneer my JBL 120Ti's anyway" I'd like to see them when done - tough round corners!

I skinned a pair of 4411's with fancy walnut, they came out great.
View attachment 776469
I'm not going to do it myself though. :D
 
Unless you listen in the very near field (less than 3 to 4 feet away), you're probably not going to notice the slight offset of the tweeter / mid combo if the speaker is vertical. If the speaker is set horizontal, there might be a slight bit of image shift but it will lessen with distance.

Only way to know is to try it out. You can't lose money with vintage JBL's in good shape though.
 
Unless you listen in the very near field (less than 3 to 4 feet away), you're probably not going to notice the slight offset of the tweeter / mid combo if the speaker is vertical. If the speaker is set horizontal, there might be a slight bit of image shift but it will lessen with distance.

Only way to know is to try it out. You can't lose money with vintage JBL's in good shape though.
But I will listen near field. Also, aren't 4412's supposed to be set horizontal?
 
But I will listen near field. Also, aren't 4412's supposed to be set horizontal?
I've been listening to them near-field and vertical for years. I've been listening to L112s vertically for decades. The 4412A will work as well as any 12-inch 3-way can in near-field. That's a lot of real estate to expect a cohesive sound stage up too close.
 
Unless you listen in the very near field (less than 3 to 4 feet away), you're probably not going to notice the slight offset of the tweeter / mid combo if the speaker is vertical. If the speaker is set horizontal, there might be a slight bit of image shift but it will lessen with distance.

Only way to know is to try it out. You can't lose money with vintage JBL's in good shape though.
I've been listening to them near-field and vertical for years. I've been listening to L112s vertically for decades. The 4412A will work as well as any 12-inch 3-way can in near-field. That's a lot of real estate to expect a cohesive sound stage up too close.

Okay, so here's my situation: I'm going to listen at extreme nearfield position (less than 2' from the speakers). JBL 120Ti's have very detailed, very precise imaging at that distance. But of course, the center image is ruined when you sit off-center, hence the need for center channel speaker. JBL 4412 is a very interesting choice to be the center channel speaker for JBL 120Ti mains, since they should sound the same (well at least their frequency response curves are very similar to each other). Moreover, 4412's are supposed to be oriented horizontally, so it would sit nicely above my computer monitor (my desk is against the wall).

However, how should the single 4412 be horizontally aligned? Should it be centered based on the baffle's vertical centerline? If that's the case, then the single loudspeaker would be symmetrically centered between the mains. However, the tweeter and squawker wouldn't. I wonder if such alignment would be detrimental to center image.

Or should it be centered according to the tweeter and squawker's position? If that's the case, then the tweeter and squawker would be perfectly centered between the mains, but the physical baffle would be slightly off-center, not to mention the woofer.

Since the 4412 is crossed at 800 Hz, then it seems a large portion of the midrange (vocal, etc) would be performed by the woofer. As such, it seems placement A (aligned by the baffle's centerline) would be better, but I don't have the chance to test it myself. I mean, the seller lives quite far away from my hometown.

Or maybe the 4412 should be oriented vertically anyway? But I read the model is designed to be oriented horizontally.



4412%20centerline%20copy_zpsou34qbpn.jpg
 
I think you're micro-managing a simple issue. If you have the speakers, try them. If your listening situation is so inflexible and compromised from the start, then making the best of your situation is the best you'll be able to do. It would seem a smaller two-way would be more appropriate as your center channel though, but I seldom listen to three large 12-inch 3-way boxes just two-feet from their baffles. Maybe an 18Ti?
 
I think you're micro-managing a simple issue. If you have the speakers, try them. If your listening situation is so inflexible and compromised from the start, then making the best of your situation is the best you'll be able to do. It would seem a smaller two-way would be more appropriate as your center channel though, but I seldom listen to three large 12-inch 3-way boxes just two-feet from their baffles. Maybe an 18Ti?
I'm thinking about it as well, but shouldn't a center channel speaker be as good as the mains? If I have to use smaller speaker, I'm actually thinking about JBL 4410, since the drivers are lined up vertically and the curve doesn't differ so much from 120Ti/4412.

As for listening situation, well, yes and no. Maybe it's a compromise, but I have to admit JBL 120Ti's make excellent nearfield monitors. I never lose driver coherency at such extremely close distance. I've never heard sound coming from individual drivers. In fact, the sounds come from empty space between the speakers, instead of the speakers themselves. However, center image ruined when I'm sitting off-center, so I guess I'd need a center channel speaker.

Besides, it's always nice to know more about stuff like this.
 
Given the complexities of room acoustics, your listening position and the interplay between all that and your ears, all potential theory, especially when mixing even speakers from the same manufacturer and same era or even series can be difficult to predict ahead of time, and sometimes even harder to understand under use conditions. In this case, I agree with BMWCCA, get out your reference music, a solid center channel amplifier and set up the 4412A into your desired position and listen, take notes, tweak, listen, take notes, change 4412A orientation (even place woofer up), listen, take notes, rinse and repeat. Without other means like room measurement, RTA, spectrum analyzers, room correction software, you will have to use more empirical methods to evaluate the gear you have and the potential for improvements in what you're listening or looking for.

Also, don't be surprised if a much smaller speaker like the 4406 or 18Ti / L20T3 is sufficient for center channel as the outboards speakers can certainly generate enough bass for your position. the smaller speakers excell in midrange if vocals are what you are looking for.
 
I'm thinking about it as well, but shouldn't a center channel speaker be as good as the mains? If I have to use smaller speaker, I'm actually thinking about JBL 4410, since the drivers are lined up vertically and the curve doesn't differ so much from 120Ti/4412.
Look at the dimensions of a 4410 and let me know how much smaller it is than a 4412, or a 120Ti.
 
I totally disagree with all that think the 4412A is a better speaker. The 4412A is actually a later cheaper model of the 4412, hence all of the plastic, felt and cheaper crossovers. It also was not used as much or respected as much for studio use as the 4412. The 4412 was the studio choice for most music engineered in the 80s and 90s.
 
I'm not seeing much plastic on my 4412A's, it looks to me like the 4412 has a plastic plate/port with L-pads, while the 4412A has just the plastic port. You must be referring to the veneer? Never missed it, in fact my pair has been "ruggedized" with truck-bed coating. As others have said, you could always add veneer of your choice if you were so inclined. Well, I can't, part of the upgraded paint job was rounding the corners a bit to cut down on refraction, since I can't soffit mount them.

As for the cheaper crossover, the only real difference is the L-pads being eliminated. Again, never missed those. If you like playing with them, by all means do so. Me I like things that just work straight out the gate.

Both models sound much nicer with a charge coupled crossover.
 
... But of course, the center image is ruined when you sit off-center...

That problem has been solved with newer Constant Directivity designs. See eWave thread for info.
I still use a center channel for HT, but 2 channel through a CD system pair is rock solid almost anywhere within the room. I sometimes play music at one end of a long room while reading at the other end against a side wall, the stereo effect is still happening...
Note. I am not suggesting that you cut your tweeters out to put in a CD waveguide. It is possible to experiment with most any box with a woofer at the bottom by turning it over and placing the waveguide above though. 3-way is not usually a good starting point however. It can be made to work, just not easily.
 
I totally disagree with all that think the 4412A is a better speaker. The 4412A is actually a later cheaper model of the 4412, hence all of the plastic, felt and cheaper crossovers. It also was not used as much or respected as much for studio use as the 4412. The 4412 was the studio choice for most music engineered in the 80s and 90s.
Nothing really cheaper about it. And I don't believe they were made contemporaneously except for perhaps a few short months/years. The 4412 was discontinued in the early '90s while the 4412A continued on in various forms (there was a 4412A-1) into the 2000's. That would by necessity have the 4412 more popular in the '80s and '90s since the 4412A didn't start manufacturing until the demise of the 4412. Likely also coincided with the settling for tiny near-fields in studios about the same time.:dunno:
 
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