joshvito's larger listening room - advice needed

[joshvito]

I recently moved,and had to tear down my previous listening space which I documented in another thread. (http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/joshvitos-small-listening-space.643985/page-4)

The new dedicated space is a bit larger at ~350 sq ft, compared to the old ~150sqft. I a currently waiting on a contractor to install the hardwood, so I can only share empty room photos and a rough floor plan.

However, I would like advice on general placement of my gear as I may have the contractor run a dedicated electrical circuit if it is not cost prohibitive.

From the narrow side of the room.

From the wider side of the room.

I've pulled up the nasty carpet in leu of the new floor install. The room appears like it was two bedrooms at one point before the adjoining wall was removed.

Here is my rudimentary floor plan drawing.

I am thinking I want the speakers near the 'bottom' wall and they should fire North towards the top wall.
The listening position could be just north of the door/entry.

What do you think? What's the best placement?
Gear is in my signature.

 

[jelly_bean]

First of all, Congrats on the new space!!! I think that's a good start and a cool room to work with. I would have the speakers on the 13.5' wall like you said. you'd probably have to play with position a bit. If this room is going to be dedicated to your listening, I would STRONGLY suggest looking into treating the room with bass traps/absorption/diffusion. Trap all the corners, diffusion (or absorption - two different camps on this with TONS to read about) in between the speakers on the front wall absorption at first reflection points and on the ceiling if possible. Diffusion on the back wall.

The difference acoustic treatments make is astounding.

I wised up and finally stopped rotating gear in and out and built some floor to ceiling bass traps, side panels, and diffusers. I should have spent the money there and not so much on the gear. Even my wife was surprised when she walked into my listening space for the first time after I had set them up. She never hears a difference- All the endorsement I needed.

 

[joshvito]

First of all, Congrats on the new space!!! I think that's a good start and a cool room to work with. I would have the speakers on the 13.5' wall like you said. you'd probably have to play with position a bit. If this room is going to be dedicated to your listening, I would STRONGLY suggest looking into treating the room with bass traps/absorption/diffusion. Trap all the corners, diffusion (or absorption - two different camps on this with TONS to read about) in between the speakers on the front wall absorption at first reflection points and on the ceiling if possible. Diffusion on the back wall.

The difference acoustic treatments make is astounding.

I wised up and finally stopped rotating gear in and out and built some floor to ceiling bass traps, side panels, and diffusers. I should have spent the money there and not so much on the gear. Even my wife was surprised when she walked into my listening space for the first time after I had set them up. She never hears a difference- All the endorsement I needed.

Thanks for the advice. I have 7 x 1' by 4' acoustic panels 2". I will look into diffusion and engineering some bass traps. Did you purchase xor build your bass traps? Where did you get supply/product?

 

[JT-3]

I'd go along the bottom as well, and put the sofa/chair towards the middle of the room. Then around that smaller backwall I'd put some low bookcases. Don't forget some cool framed music/movie posters.

 

[jelly_bean]

I built my own bass traps and just finished them this afternoon. They are corner traps 24" on the long end and filled with cut and stacked roxul safe n sound- might not be the best stuff out there, but it is useful and found at my local Home Depot. Plenty of diy plans out there. Thicker the better.

 

[drillher]

I built 20" tube bass traps for the corners which made a huge difference.Clearly treating the listening room should be done before investing in better gear.

 

[davidb1]

Amazon actually carries bass traps now.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...f-ff4e-4868-b5c8-fe8c3bd9f769&pf_rd_i=desktop

 

[twiiii]

If you want the reflection off the back wall to disappear in your mind the reflection needs to be between 25 and 35 milliseconds be hind the original impulse. Its the way our brain works. Haas effect as I remember. Once you have your listening position and speaker location decided , then room treat meant can be considered. I don't like speakers pulled away from the wall as it causes bluring of any frequencies produced by the woofer which are essentially omni directional. I would prefer to place speakers against a wall with absorbency placed around the speaker to absorb secondary reflections of the upper bass, mids and lower highs with your point source speakers. Then if there are any low resonances installing bass traps can be considered. AS your speakers are point source I would place carpet and padding on the floor to stop smearing from floor reflections. If you want place something that is random in thick ness behind you to break up the reflection is a plus. I used a 1/6 th octave analyzer when setting up my room. Using a parametric Equalizer to voice the system. You could use Lyngdorphs 1/12 octave Room perfect or Odysseys' system for automated voicing. I'm not fond of Odyssey's system unless the room is right first. Room Perfect is a little more sophisticated in room mapping before applying correction. If your speakers have any resonances or ringing no amount of voicing is going to help. If your speakers are rear ported then you will have to pull them from the wall and deal with another variable that can make getting the correct balance even more difficult.

 

[Old Guy8]

Amazon actually carries bass traps now.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...f-ff4e-4868-b5c8-fe8c3bd9f769&pf_rd_i=desktop

Those are very reasonably priced. And there are various corner and wall versions. Different colors on wall tiles. Did not check shipping cost. Ones I have previously seen elsewhere were multiple of what these cost.
Sorry for diversion. Back to this room. That 13.5' wall is likely best. Should be nice room with hardwoods and some rugs in front of speakers and lined fabric curtains on window behind. OP, sounds like you know more than I on room treatments. Enjoy

 

[Mr.Jim]

They sell them on the epay, may want to compare prices.

 

[joshvito]

Here are some progress pictures.
Had a new oak hardwood put in, along with some drywall work.

After some fresh paint and new electric recepticals, it's starting to look livable.

Starting to pull some of the gear out of storage.

The above is shot from the narrowed side of the room.

 

[joshvito]

More photos of the speaker positioning and gear setup.
I also ran a dedicated circuit from my electric panel to the single outlet that powers the stereo.

Next steps are to get the closet doors painted and hung so I can get the measurement mic out and take measurements before positioning my acoustic panels. The room is pretty echo-ey at the moment. However, it'sexciting to have access to my records again and to enjoy the new VPI.

I also have a number from the phono preamp. It goes away if I use a 3prong to 2 prong plug converter. Ground loop hum is new to me. I wonder the easiest way to remedy. I contacted Parasound, and they told me to use the 2prong converter, as it was safe . I'm a bit unsure though.

Thanks for following the build. Also, the paint color is Agreeable Gray by Sherwin Williams.
Happy listening.

 

[soundboy]

I have those same B&W stands but I have not assembled them yet. What are you using between your speakers and the stands? Blu Tack?

 

[joshvito]

I have those same B&W stands but I have not assembled them yet. What are you using between your speakers and the stands? Blu Tack?

I just have the speakers setting on the speaker spikes that came with the stands. I also filled the stands with pea gravel.

 

[enginedr]

Three or four properly placed subwoofers in that room would work great . Look up distributed bass Earl Geddes

 

[joshvito]

I finally got a chance to get UMIK-1 measurement mic out, and take some room measurements. I started with one configuration of my speakers/listening position(pos.A), and realized that all the first reflection points lined up with doors and windows.So I moved the speakers closer to the room corners so treatments would be easier to apply (pos.B).

Measurements of the room for each positioning.

I took a few measurements with the speakers and listener in each position. I also took measurements with and without sound treatments placed in the room to see if the acoustic panels actually affected the sound.

Note on the acoustic panels: The panels measure 1'x4'x2" and are filled with Roxul 60. For more information on the panels, I documented how I built them in an old Imgur Gallery.

I'm going to take a break, and I'll upload measurements in a bit. TBC

 

[jelly_bean]

The flooring looks great, and that cabinet with the VPI on it is lovely. Can't wait till its sorted!

 

[joshvito]

As stated in a previous post, I used aUMIK-1 USB mic to measure the acoustics in the new room. I followed the very helpful getting started guide linked in the AVSForums at http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...ues-how-interpret-graphs-10.html#post22823228

I will say, I am a complete new to using REW software, so the images and data I am posting is mostly the result of reading the help doc listed above.

First thing I did for each position was to remove the acoustic panels from the room and take a base measurement of both speakers at each location to analyze bass frequencies. I also took a measurement of each individual speaker with no treatments.

Pos.A - No Treatements

A small amount of 'ringing at the 40Hz, getting close to ringing in the 150-300Hz range too.

Pos.B - No Treatments

Still some ringing at 40Hz, but less ridges in the upper range.

Pos.A No Treatment Data - https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnEpERyGmiVls0KZEsVWkQyZzyQo
Pos.B No Treatment Data - https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnEpERyGmiVls0XBkbo6gl0gt-fg

Another way to look at bass response is via spectrograph. Specifically, I think we are looking for flatter response with less peaks and no waveform above 450ms. It's like looking at the waterfall from the top down.

Pos.A - no treatments

Pos.B No Treatments


Next post I will show how a few acoustic treatments have changed the measurements. TBC

 

[joshvito]

This is the placement of 1st reflection and front corners of acoustic panels I used while measuring.

Pos.A
This is a comparison of Position A with no treatments(blue) vs. 1st reflections and front corners treated(red);
Looks like the treatments do help with bass control.

Pos.B
This is a comparison of Position B with no treatments(blue) vs. 1st reflections and front corners treated(red);
Looks like the treatments do help with bass control.The seems to fall off better in this position than in position A.

Pos.B
This is showing that if I double up the front corner traps from 1 x 2"(red) to 2 x 2"(green) panels, I can get a little better bass performance.

Here is Pos.A (green) vs Pos.B (red)
Both have treatments at first reflection points and at the front corners. Looks to me that Pos.B has the better bass response with less ringing. Granted, I am accepting that the lower 40Hz or less is very hard to control.

As I am very new to this acoustic measurement side of the hobby, is there anything I should also be thinking about when choosing a setup position?

 

[joshvito]

I took the time a few weeks back to actually hang the panels on the wall. Seems like this current position is pretty good use of the room and it's available setup positions. The giant glass window behind the speakers is not ideal, but I like the view while the record is spinning.

Here's a few photos of the existing panels that are hung. I'm currently constructing a couple 4' x 1' x 4" bass traps for the front corners. I haven't decided if I will corner mount them or just make legs for them to sit close to floor.

Aside from the current production of bass traps. Future planned upgrades to the room include:

• I want to move the record console/shelving to beside the listing position below the hanging wall map. I'll leave the gear in the center, but get a couple audio racks that will give me more space for my gear.I have another TT I may set up.
• I also want a more comfortable couch/chair to listen from. I've been on the lookout for a mid-century modern looking couch, Scandinavian type chair, and/or home theater seating
• Once I get the bass traps in place, I will move the audio gear further back so there is more free space between the speakers.