Journey from Rotel to McIntosh: Guidance Please

[Shawn Empey]

Hello All

As the title mentions, some guidance is needed as I might have some buyers regret kicking in before a McIntosh MC7106 arrives.

Quick back story, let me role for a second before the MC7106 comes in: Recently completed my first McIntosh car audio system. Knew it was going to be amazing, didn't think it would blow my mind. It did and now the home 2 channel system is under my scrutiny

Setup a couple months ago:

Speakers: Paradigm Studio 100v2 biwired
PreAmp: Rotel RSX-1056
Amp: Rotel RB-991
Topping D10 DAC via analog to Pre Amp

Rotel analog stage is crummy. Brought in a McIntosh C26 preamp. Interesting, good sound, bass a little sloppy.

Here is where things got interesting. Since the C26 was old, completely refreshed though, I had a spare McIntosh MX406 HU for another car build. I put that in place of the Rotel and McIntosh C26 preamp, and just a complete wow that a HU for a home setup from a car can be that much of a leap.

Since I have McIntosh Amps in the car that give me wow factor, I started to look at the heart of my system, the RB-991. Great power, great reviews all in all never disappointed me till I started walking in the Mcintosh Line

I am well aware of the autoformers in the MC7150 line and up. I held out for a a long time checking ebay and other sites but I wasn't finding anything from McIntosh in my budget that could power up the studio100's properly. I spent more time lookling at the older Mcintsh line and found their MC71xx line. The reviews of that line are good. And the MC7106 will do 4 ohms near 200w.

I then hovered for two days over the buy now for a MC7106, nothing else came up, and I bought it. 2K Canadian for that amp. Then a MC7150 came up that was just a little cheaper.

Did I make a mistake and not wait for an autoformer for two channel audio?
Will the jump from the rotel rb-991 to the MC7106 be worth it now?

I plan to look at an MX119 to replace the car HU MX406 due to its amazing two channel DAC. Unless you can suggest another mcintosh Pre amp as well

Thanks for your time

 

[captouch]

The C26 is from '68-'78, so it may sound more vintage/warmer than more recent preamps. You say refreshed - do you mean all electrolytic caps were replaced with new? If all that was done and it still sounds sloppy, maybe you just want something more modern. The MX119 is more of a home theater preamp and I'm sure it sounds good, but doing simple things you want to do in a 2-ch setup maybe be a little more cumbersome to do with a HT preamp (going into more menus, etc). The HT units, since they have other technology embedded, seem to depreciate more as well vs 2-ch preamps which don't have as much to become "obsolete". So whatever you buy it for, you may have trouble getting your $ out later if that's important to you.

This website has some values as a reference point: http://www.kruipen.com

I recently bought a C35 preamp from the '89-'92 era which is pure 2-ch, has variable loudness, 5-band tone controls, and a remote. Since it only has a half-glass face and has push button controls for volume (which I never use since I use the remote), it's a less loved piece and sells for less than similar models that came before and after, but that's a good thing for a buyer if you're OK with the looks. The C31V also fits into that camp, and those were the two models recommended as some of the better values in the Mac preamp line. That should be modern enough that it's not going to sound overtly vintage, but still has some warmth. I heard from another AK'er that as time went on, the preamps got progressively more lean, so it's a question on what you want in terms of sound balance.

If your C26 has been recapped and works well, but you just don't care for the sound from that era, you may want to see whether someone is willing to trade a more recent Mac preamp for yours. Some people are specifically looking for that warmer sound from older units. Some $ may exchange hands to make it a fair trade, but it could be a nice win/win option versus selling your C26 and buying another.

As far as the MC 7106, the thing that sticks out to me is that it's a 6-ch amp and you only need 2. So unless you plan to somehow use the other 4 channels, it seems like the same money could have been applied toward a more powerful 2-ch amp with power guard. Your speakers are 88db sensitivity, so your 160-200W should be fine though unless you go really loud. But if you've already purchased the 7106, it's a little late on reconsider that unless the seller offers returns. If you look at the value of 7106's on the site I posted above, that may also help you with your decision on that if return is an option. Really, the amp will probably work out fine for you, but it's just not ideal in terms of having 4 unused channels.

 

[musichal]

I know I'd rather have a beefier two-channel model than a multi-channel, but that's just me.

 

[Yamaki]

This is just my own personal opinion. Having owned a MX119, and now a MX135, I agree the MX119 has a good 2-channel pre-amp section. So does the MX135. I specifically purchased the MX135 to increase the number of balanced XLR inuts and outputs. There was nothing wrong with the MX119 after it received a refresh from Audio Classics and it performed well.

However, IMHO the internal DAC in both of those pre-amp/processors is more geared towards processing 5 channel optical inputs vs. decoding high resolution digital music files in a two channel scenario. When I switched to an external DAC for 2-channel music I was amazed. Not only was the DAC really doing a great job but the 2-channel pre-amp really came into its own.

I'm not sure why you purchased a multi-channel amplifier if you are only going to use it for 2 channel music but on the upside, it does give you the opportunity to expand its use if you want to use it for HT as well as 2 channel music.

Pricing for the MX119 and MX135 have sort of flattened out but the MX135 will command a higher price. If you stick with a 2 channel system only, then consider the McIntosh C45 or C46 preamps. Alternately, maybe one of the C2xxx tube pre-amps could be considered but they are more expensive.

 

[techguy0192]

The 7106 is a great amp. You can use 4 of the 6 channels to bi-amp your Paradigm speakers.

There's a slightly different sound between the direct coupled and autoformer amps. I've owned both and prefer the direct coupled amps. I find them to have a faster and more detailed sound. In the end it's still a Mac. I definatly support your plan to get an MX119.

 

[musichal]

The 7106 is a great amp. You can use 4 of the 6 channels to bi-amp your Paradigm speakers.

There's a slightly different sound between the direct coupled and autoformer amps. I've owned both and prefer the direct coupled amps. I find them to have a faster and more detailed sound. In the end it's still a Mac. I definatly support your plan to get an MX119.

Good point on the bi-amp, I forgot about that. I'm sure Shawn Empey didn't. Great speakers, btw.

 

[Shawn Empey]

If your C26 has been recapped and works well, but you just don't care for the sound from that era, you may want to see whether someone is willing to trade a more recent Mac preamp for yours. Some people are specifically looking for that warmer sound from older units. Some $ may exchange hands to make it a fair trade, but it could be a nice win/win option versus selling your C26 and buying another.

Captouch: Thank you for the depth in your reply. I bought the C26 on a whim, it doesn't suit for my sit down and listen mood, so currently helps drive the garage stereo. I was told it was recapped and new pots. I took it apart recently and saw two new pots and caps looked "newer" Only going on what the shop said for what the original owner did. I was pleased with the sound stage, but as I noted the bass was a sloppy on the paradigms. I could let it go, but I am not hard up for funds to get a different preamp.

This is just my own personal opinion. Having owned a MX119, and now a MX135, I agree the MX119 has a good 2-channel pre-amp section. So does the MX135. I specifically purchased the MX135 to increase the number of balanced XLR inuts and outputs. There was nothing wrong with the MX119 after it received a refresh from Audio Classics and it performed well.

However, IMHO the internal DAC in both of those pre-amp/processors is more geared towards processing 5 channel optical inputs vs. decoding high resolution digital music files in a two channel scenario. When I switched to an external DAC for 2-channel music I was amazed. Not only was the DAC really doing a great job but the 2-channel pre-amp really came into its own.

Yamaki: Everything I sniffed out on the MX119, is it is a completely seperate DAC for analog, nothing to do with the multichannel processing. And, just imo, having a nice big in your face glass mcintosh is sexy.

The 7106 is a great amp. You can use 4 of the 6 channels to bi-amp your Paradigm speakers.

There's a slightly different sound between the direct coupled and autoformer amps. I've owned both and prefer the direct coupled amps. I find them to have a faster and more detailed sound. In the end it's still a Mac. I definatly support your plan to get an MX119.

Techguy0192: I should have mentioned that in my first post. It occurred to me that I can biamp, and since you brought that to light, like CapTouch did, I thought this amp will be a real win for that reason.

To answer a couple of points about why I bought the multichannel, I was caught between waiting for aslong as I did without seeing any thing come up. MC7100's were asking far too much, and since the MC7106 is basically three MC7100's the price was fair. 1300USD. So a balance of being impacient and wasn't enjoying what I presently had. And now pointing out the biamping, that is likely the final ok that I am fine. Oh well. If it all falls apart. Sell it all and start from scratch

 

[Shawn Empey]

Oh and thank you all on the pointers to look at the various preamps. I will make a choice soon after I do more reading

 

[captouch]

Captouch: Thank you for the depth in your reply. I bought the C26 on a whim, it doesn't suit for my sit down and listen mood, so currently helps drive the garage stereo. I was told it was recapped and new pots. I took it apart recently and saw two new pots and caps looked "newer" Only going on what the shop said for what the original owner did. I was pleased with the sound stage, but as I noted the bass was a sloppy on the paradigms. I could let it go, but I am not hard up for funds to get a different preamp.



Yamaki: Everything I sniffed out on the MX119, is it is a completely seperate DAC for analog, nothing to do with the multichannel processing. And, just imo, having a nice big in your face glass mcintosh is sexy.



Techguy0192: I should have mentioned that in my first post. It occurred to me that I can biamp, and since you brought that to light, like CapTouch did, I thought this amp will be a real win for that reason.

To answer a couple of points about why I bought the multichannel, I was caught between waiting for aslong as I did without seeing any thing come up. MC7100's were asking far too much, and since the MC7106 is basically three MC7100's the price was fair. 1300USD. So a balance of being impacient and wasn't enjoying what I presently had. And now pointing out the biamping, that is likely the final ok that I am fine. Oh well. If it all falls apart. Sell it all and start from scratch

Just a note about bi-amping. . .your 7106 looks like it has level controls on the back, which is great. Since it sounds like you won't be using an active crossover to bi-amp, the power balance between tweeters/mids and bass will likely have to be optimized/balanced by using the level controls on the back. Or at least you have that option. Anyway, great use of 4 of the 6 channels on the amp.

I think your system should sound great and you're putting a lot of thought and research into the models you're selecting. Update us and let us know how it all comes together when you get it all set up.

 

[Shawn Empey]

This is just my own personal opinion. Having owned a MX119, and now a MX135, I agree the MX119 has a good 2-channel pre-amp section. So does the MX135. I specifically purchased the MX135 to increase the number of balanced XLR inuts and outputs. There was nothing wrong with the MX119 after it received a refresh from Audio Classics and it performed well.

However, IMHO the internal DAC in both of those pre-amp/processors is more geared towards processing 5 channel optical inputs vs. decoding high resolution digital music files in a two channel scenario. When I switched to an external DAC for 2-channel music I was amazed. Not only was the DAC really doing a great job but the 2-channel pre-amp really came into its own.

I'm not sure why you purchased a multi-channel amplifier if you are only going to use it for 2 channel music but on the upside, it does give you the opportunity to expand its use if you want to use it for HT as well as 2 channel music.

Pricing for the MX119 and MX135 have sort of flattened out but the MX135 will command a higher price. If you stick with a 2 channel system only, then consider the McIntosh C45 or C46 preamps. Alternately, maybe one of the C2xxx tube pre-amps could be considered but they are more expensive.

Yamaki - I did some research and the analog stage from the C46 is shared in the MX119 through to the MX135, completely separate and will be a win. Thus being said, I've just placed an order for a MX134 from the same fellow I have the MC7106 coming from.

Are are some details on the C46 shared parts in the MX119

http://www.rotel.com/sites/default/files/RSP1098_AbSound_Dec05.pdf

http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/Downloads/MC2102-C2200-MC402-C46_tst.pdf

 

[Shawn Empey]

And this link too http://www.iar-80.com/page159.html

 

[Yamaki]

Good luck with the MX134.

After doing some digging I realized my simplistic assumptions regarding the architecture of the DAC chipsets were flawed.

 

[Yamaki]

And this link too http://www.iar-80.com/page159.html

Obviously that reviewer didn't like the digital input of the MX119. There were some technical inconsistencies in his review but I'll pass over those.

I always used the analog XLR input when listening to digital music via the D100 DAC/pre-amp/headphone amp and had the MX119 set to Pure Stereo. I do the same with the MX135.

Now I am wondering what 2-channel pre-amp is in my MX135. Curse you, Shawn Empey....now I have a bunch more research to do...

 

[Shawn Empey]

Obviously that reviewer didn't like the digital input of the MX119. There were some technical inconsistencies in his review but I'll pass over those.

I always used the analog XLR input when listening to digital music via the D100 DAC/pre-amp/headphone amp and had the MX119 set to Pure Stereo. I do the same with the MX135.

Now I am wondering what 2-channel pre-amp is in my MX135. Curse you, Shawn Empey....now I have a bunch more research to do...

Well it is my pleasure to pull the viel back a bit more. I tend to get very deep in my research on things I buy, I look at that as reassurance that it will last me for years to come and deals with my wife knowing I am happy. Now I just have to get a Mc system in the Audi

 

[Shawn Empey]

Obviously that reviewer didn't like the digital input of the MX119. There were some technical inconsistencies in his review but I'll pass over those.

I always used the analog XLR input when listening to digital music via the D100 DAC/pre-amp/headphone amp and had the MX119 set to Pure Stereo. I do the same with the MX135.

Now I am wondering what 2-channel pre-amp is in my MX135. Curse you, Shawn Empey....now I have a bunch more research to do...

Typo on my part, I corrected that the 2 channel preamp is the same through to the 135, so 134 and 119 all have it

 

[rickl]

I might have skipped a few posts but I have a c26+Hafler amp and Maggies. I don't think the bass is sloppy but it might be the speakers. While I don't think the c26 to best, I wonder if it is more about synergy.

I have a lot of great pre amps but nothing prettier than a McIntosh

 

[Shawn Empey]

I might have skipped a few posts but I have a c26+Hafler amp and Maggies. I don't think the bass is sloppy but it might be the speakers. While I don't think the c26 to best, I wonder if it is more about synergy.

I have a lot of great pre amps but nothing prettier than a McIntosh

I switched out to another mcinotsh pre amp and the bass tightened up significantly. The C26 with the paradigm studio 100v2 just isn't a good combination for my ears

 

[E-Stat]

The C26 with...

Solid state audio design has advanced significantly over the past half century.

 

[Shawn Empey]

Where do I start? This has been a heck of a journey to get to this post.

October 2018, Rotel RB-991 right channel blew. Took it in to get repaired, got it back and while playing at modest levels a transistor blew up on the right rail, speaker protection didn't work, too much joice shot down the line and took out two voice coils in my Paradigm Studio 100v2s.

Called the shop that did the repair, told me to bring the amp and one speaker in. They fixed the rotel, and sent my two drivers back to Paradigm to be rebuild at their cost. Good? Yes, BUT, its been three months and I've not gotten the repair back. So I have been living with one speaker since Mid October last year.

In the meantime, I ordered a Macintosh MX134, arrived damanged. Glass shattered. Ordered replacement glass from the mother ship. Got my hands on the McIntosh MC7106 arrived good, got all the bulbs replaced.

Decided to give a good friend of mine the re/repaired Rotel RB-991 while I keep looking for a tuner. Sold the MX134 after I took a night to swap the glass. McIntosh MR75 Tuner arrived. Love it, never had such a high grade tuner in my life.

Found a McIntosh MX135, Love it. But being Mid January and still no repaired Studio 100, I started looking.

Found a wonderful fellow localy builds/designes speakers, has a TON of ESL's, ML all over his house. Amazing.

What got me in the door was a pair of fulyl rebuild Carver Amazings. Ribbon's with three open air 12". Took a leap and spent over a grand in a private sale. Got them home, and one of the ribbons weren't playing. Called him, super chill gave some advise to check them over. No luck, heart sunk and was likely thinking that this was a one way transaction and I was stuck with them.

Nope, called him the next day. He said bring back the broken one and he'd fix it. Brought it to him and left for the day, called me later and said he wanted the other one back to make sure repairs/sound match.

Came over to his house later that night, with beer in hand as a gesture for working out this with me. The fellow could have simply said, sorry but you paid and got what you tested - can't help you. Completely different experience.

I ended up hanging out at his house lastnight for almost 4 hours. We talked and drank and had a good time as he was selling some vinyl to other people. I did express I had some conserns about taking the Carvers back. I was exhausted from all these months of no music and broken speakers and amps.

Out of the blue I asked if I could exchange them for something else. No problem he said. And it brings me to the final close on this journey. As I mentioned he builds/designs speakers and has over 500k of speakers in his out. Flag Ship cieling high ML's the list goes on.

I present below, a custom Transmission line horn loaded cabnet that he build by himself and speced driven by the Tang Band W8-1772's, Oak Veneer with real wood build and internal bracing. No press or partical board. They are easily a hundred pound each. These were designed amoungst others he owns going back over 8 years for a CES show. These have less than 30 hours play time and sound just amazing. He build it along the lines of the recommeded style from Tang's site

The Sound, Oh My the Sound, they pull you in so much. I have never heard a full range driver in my life till these. Cost me more than the Carvers. This has been an amazing three months that ended on such an unexpected high note with something that is very speacial. Mid Range, Sound Stages like no ones business. The sound just pours out.

Pix Below

 

[Shawn Empey]

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