KX-100 power rectification/filtering

MikeTest

New Member
I have replace all the power filter caps. The first dc voltage (schematic says 440) is running about 460 volt dc. There is also a 13v p-p ripple. The ripple is 120hz and is an asymetric saw tooth (rises about twice the rate as falls).

Is 460 Vdc in the acceptable range ?
Is 13 v p-p ripple in the acceptable range ?

Also I have read up on full wave rectification but am not seeing that the KX-100 follows what is typically described as such. Some hints on the theory of operation of the KX-100 rectification scheme would be appreciated.
 
Fisher KX-100 is a nice unit and almost identical to the Fisher X-100-B. I have one and it is my main system.

The rectifiers it came with are early silicon and probably should be replaced. If they are leaky they are probably the cause of your ripple. I'm assuming your PS cap replacement is all working correctly. I rebuilt my whole amp and replaced the rectifiers with part UF4007CT-ND from DK. Just make sure you put them in with the correct orientation.

A couple of relevant questions:

- What is your incoming line voltage? Nowadays the line voltage is typically much higher then back in the 1960's and that could account for some of the high measurements you are getting.
- Have you had a listen to the unit? Is it humming? With that kind of ripple I'd have to think so.
- What else has been done to the amp?
 
Line voltage is 122 vac rms

It does hum (which is why I started this adventure) however it hums at 60 hz. I also think there is something wrong in the phono pre amp (sounds distorted) but haven't even started down that road. I believe I got the PS caps in correctly. In fact it had the ripple before I replaced them but figured that was a good place to start with a rebuild.

I have done nothing else to the amp and it does not appear anyone else has either.
 
Mike -- The values you measured are quite normal. The rectifier design used in your amplifier is in fact full wave design, in that rectification is taking place on both halves of the sine wave. This is the very definition of what the term "full wave" means. What you are likely referring to (i.e.more familiar with) is what is known as a "conventional" full wave rectifier design. In this classic configuration, the HV secondary is center tapped and usually grounded, with the two rectifier legs coming off each end of the winding. Rectification can be either tube or SS rectifiers.

The Fisher circuit employs what is known as a Full Wave Voltage Doubler circuit, which has always been well known, but seldom used with vacuum tubes because of (usually) the need for multiple tubes, and the fact that early caps of significant capacitance and voltage were quite large. With the advent of SS rectifiers and improvements in electrolytic cap construction, the circuit then becomes highly practical, if not desirable: Transformer physical size for a given wattage output is reduced allowing for a smaller chassis footprint, regulation is better due to the lower impedance of the transformer winding, and less heat is produced over a similar conventional full wave rectifier design. In a full wave doubler circuit, the two diodes are connected in opposite polarity to the transformer winding, so that what is effectively produced is two half wave rectifier circuits connected out of phase, and in series, which then doubles the voltage. For the same DC voltage and current output from the doubler rectifier circuit, it requires only half the AC voltage input, but draws twice the AC current versus that drawn by an otherwise conventional full wave rectifier circuit of similar capability.

I hope this helps!

Dave
 
Mike -- The values you measured are quite normal. The rectifier design used in your amplifier is in fact full wave design, in that rectification is taking place on both halves of the sine wave. This is the very definition of what the term "full wave" means. What you are likely referring to (i.e.more familiar with) is what is known as a "conventional" full wave rectifier design. In this classic configuration, the HV secondary is center tapped and usually grounded, with the two rectifier legs coming off each end of the winding. Rectification can be either tube or SS rectifiers.

The Fisher circuit employs what is known as a Full Wave Voltage Doubler circuit, which has always been well known, but seldom used with vacuum tubes because of (usually) the need for multiple tubes, and the fact that early caps of significant capacitance and voltage were quite large. With the advent of SS rectifiers and improvements in electrolytic cap construction, the circuit then becomes highly practical, if not desirable: Transformer physical size for a given wattage output is reduced allowing for a smaller chassis footprint, regulation is better due to the lower impedance of the transformer winding, and less heat is produced over a similar conventional full wave rectifier design. In a full wave doubler circuit, the two diodes are connected in opposite polarity to the transformer winding, so that what is effectively produced is two half wave rectifier circuits connected out of phase, and in series, which then doubles the voltage. For the same DC voltage and current output from the doubler rectifier circuit, it requires only half the AC voltage input, but draws twice the AC current versus that drawn by an otherwise conventional full wave rectifier circuit of similar capability.

I hope this helps!

Dave
Thanks Dave, You are correct in that the center tap method was what I generally find info on but knew that is not what Fisher used in this case. Thanks for the direction.
 
After the advent of solid state silicon rectifiers with low internal resistance, voltage doubler circuits became pretty universally used in tube type amplifiers and receivers. Fisher did use some bridge rectifiers of selenium material in bias circuits and in tube type tuner B+ circuits.

Make sure that the hum you are hearing is 60Hz and not 120Hz. Full-wave rectifier circuits in power supplies operating from 60Hz AC supply sources produce 120Hz ripple in the B+ power supply.

If no hum is audible when switched to the Aux inputs with no cables plugged in, it may be a tube filament to cathode short or leakage coming from a phono preamp stage (also make sure phono cartridge cables are unplugged from the low level phonograph inputs. Swapping tubes from channel to channel is a good test to determine if a tube is causing hum if the hum moves to the other channel when swapped. If the hum is equal in both channels, it points more to a B+ power supply issue. If there is hum with cables unplugged while on Aux function, one other step to help isolate the problem source would be to unplug the shorting links associated with the "Reverb" jacks. If that clears the hum it is originating in the Line Amp stages ahead of the volume control. Swapping tubes from channel to channel again will help tell if a tube is at fault.

As all these tube type units have considerable age, it is a good idea to clean all the slide switches and the function/input selector switch with appropriate Deoxit cleaner. Corrosion can cause lots of poor audio or weak audio or even hum problems.

Joe
 
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