Large Scale Speaker Sound.

I have to agree. You haven't lived till you have experienced, Big Altec, JBL or Meyer systems. They can be as focused as small system yet present the sound of a full orchestra, wind band, or Pipe organ as no other system can <snip for brevity> A way to reproduce sound with scale, dynamics and pleasure as the the world spread before us as we travel in style.

Yes Sir! I have seen a divergence in this thread- those who "get it", and those who *think* they "get it". I'm not tryin to pick on anyone; we all form our preferences from experience. It depends on the "scale" we have experienced. As a live sound engineer who has worked a good number of the clubs, theaters, arenas, and stadiums in North America, with many performing artists of different musical genres, I know intimately what @twiiii speaks of. I know what live instruments sound like when I stand way too close to them on stage ;)

But, it wasn't until I brought a big Altec theater system *into my home*, that I really "got it". 4 15"s per side, large-format compression drivers on multicell horns, and JBL baby-cheek tweeters in an active/passive system with solid-state amps on bottom, tubes on top... in a 15' x 25' x 9' room.
We didn't listen to music. We attended concerts.

@WaynerN, Man you've been dancing around this, is SWMBO watching while you type? Please don't take offense, I'm kidding- you clearly get the concept ;) But my take is, if the speakers will fit in the room, and there's room left for a chair, then the speakers are not too big for the room. We have simply made the transition from modal space to pressure-zone.

There are not enough smilies in the library to punctuate this post without it looking stupid. So I'll trust y'all sense o'humor. :)

<edit> Oh, I meant to mention, "dispersion" is highly over-rated, IMO. More important is a smooth transition of directivity. From omni in the bass (unless you're using a cardioid dipole) , to an 80-90 degree pattern for the top four octaves (with possible dipole advantages here, too). Which is why I like well-designed waveguides with compression drivers, and abhor dome tweeters. This has been covered in depth by Geddes, Parham, and others. (desperately trying to unsqueeze toothpaste back into the tube) :lol:

<edit2> It's not about bass. There must be balance. It's about effortless bass.
It's not about volume or loudness. With the Altecs, I could create the auditory illusion of being at a live concert, but still hold conversation with someone 6 feet away, without raising our voices. The Stage was just far enough away that we could do that.
As freQ(*)Oddio opined in the defining article of this thread, it is about scale. Not volume, loudness, nor bass. Scale. I like that observation.

<edit3> It's about efficiency of energy conversion. Efficient (pro) drivers sound more "alive and real" to me than low-efficiency audiophile drivers which measure better at small-signal tests. I just know that a 82-86dB/1w/1m woofer is going to sound less "alive and real" than a 95-98dB/1w/1m woofer, no matter what the simulations and measurements say, at the same acoustic volume level. One night, just for giggles, I hooked an oscilloscope to the amp outputs feeding the Altecs, from 70Hz up. Cranked the level up to the max anyone was comfortable with- rock concert levels in our basement living room. We hit occasional peak levels of 4 watts per channel.
 
Last edited:
There is near field listening. But, I have a bride that likes to share the music with me, so near field is tough for two. However, my vinyl room might be considered a near-field listening environment, thou its a bit stretched, maybe more like semi-near-field. I've tried this with big speakers and it kind of doesn't work, at least for me. Reminds me of sitting next to the PA at a rock concert.

The scaling thing is all about soundscape for me. Maybe other people have completely different ideas of what a system should sound like, but I like things that float in space, that have depth and pin-point positions if that was the intent. Right now, I'm listening to "PIPE DREAMS" FM program on a local FM station, featuring awesome pipe organ music recorded from around the globe using some of the finest pipe organs in the world. This is played thru my 3-channel system, featuring vintage Marantz electronics, Empire and JBL speakers in my vinyl room. The Empires have a 10" down-firing woofer that really makes the bass of the pipe organ come thru, actually vibrating the concrete floor of my lower level. If this system were in a larger room, the effect would not be the same. Its success for me is all about the ratios of speakers to rooms. That scaling thing again.

I should explain the 3 speaker system speaker locations. The center channel is dead center in front of us, elevated about 4'6". The true left and right speakers are on the side walls, slightly forward of the listening position facing us, so in effect the side speakers face each other. The results of this set up is pretty much like listening to your system with a big pair of headphones. It just works. In the case of the pipe organ music, it pretty much sounds as if you were at the location listening.

The other thing I wanted to mention goes back to my vinyl listening. Its obviously 2 channel, but I use 4 speakers with the preamp feeding 2 power amps and one of the power amps is feeding my subwoofer's input with its output (hi-level). So the 2 channel system has 5 speakers. The two mains are JBL Studio 530s about 8 feet apart, up 4 feet, up against the wall. The sub-woofer in one the floor, centered between our 2 listening chairs slightly forward of the mains. The second set of speakers are JBL S109 Aquarius IV surround speakers located on the side walls, next to the Empire Grenadier 6000s (that I use for pipe organ music listening). This configuration produces multi-channel effects from a 2 channel source. The sound field has at least a 180° range.

While this thread has gone the scaling/room matching route, there is a lot more to speaker placement then meets the eye. Paradigms must be over come, because there are many different ways to set up speakers, to gain enjoyment levels. This means you have to be a bit creative and not let your known world stop you from experimenting. If you want to get big ass speakers and put them in a tiny room, go for it. If you want to get tiny speakers and put them in a big room, go for it. Try and make them work. My vinyl room is about 11" x 14' with the usual 8 foot ceiling. There are 9 1/2 sets of speakers in the room, all hooked up to one of 5 systems. It is the great experiment.
 
Last edited:
Can you suggest one?

Not to discount any other comments nor try to conflict with them but keep in mind that the crossover might be considered the heart of your system. That is one area you might want to put some priority verses economics...

a bunch of Klipsch guys (using all horns) are moving from the Electrovoice DX-38 to the Xilica lineup..... the Xilica is 'around' $1,000 (not really sure of price but it's not going to be a cheap). They don't get in the way of the sound.
 
Rational35 Yes Sir! I have seen a divergence in this thread- those who "get it", and those who *think* they "get it". I'm not tryin to pick on anyone; we all form our preferences from experience.
one A5 on the the right one A5 on the left and a proportional stereo sub in the middle. with Altec it's just that simple.
 
I restored my friends Altec Lansing Valencia speakers. In case you don't know, they have a huge multi-cellular horn and a 15" woofer with a 4" voice coil. It takes very little power to start these babies up, but the physical diameter of the woofer can push lots of air volume, and that is why big speakers like these have that big speaker sound.

They look like these I lost my pictures.......borrowed this photo:



View attachment 1389898

'ner
They look amazing, i want to be in that picture listening , with a chair and a small tube amplifier, and a drink.
 
Last edited:
I've really enjoyed sneaking into the various churches I've done AV work at (sneaking is a strong word when. I have a key and the alarm code. :D) to play back some of my favorite tracks in a large space over a good pro-sound installation. Imaging is of course nonexistent in that setting, but there's something about a pile of horns and big woofers with a boatload of power behind them playing in a large space.

I've heard a similar sense of scale from a few of the bigger home systems I've had the opportunity to listen to.
 
[
But there is something about the scale and dynamics of the sound most consumer systems can't match. I don't find it necessary today, but there was a time when I loved big dynamics with a large scope in reproduction. I really became disenchanted when movie theaters decreased in size their screens and scale.
It was horrible to see these old theaters carved up into intimate little booths in the name of mo-money. You can get some of that back by going to an IMAX theater, but the one thing you'll never get back is real Technicolor film lit up with real carbon arc projectors. There is truly nothing that even comes close.
 
Can you suggest one?
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...MIlNDU8p_93wIV2h-tBh0bjAJ5EAAYASAAEgK7i_D_BwE
I briefly considered this one but considering all the money and time I have in my L200s I decided I wanted something with a bit more of a track record so I bought the MiniDSP 4X10HD which satisfied the requirements for running triamp. All you need is one malfunction in any part of what the DSP does to destroy drivers. Not saying that the parts express one would do that, necessary. Of course I wouldn't shop for the cheapest parachute either if I was so inclined to jump out of an airplane. .



Before that I used the MiniDSP 2x4HD and was a great sounding dsp for the money if all you need is biamp.

There is also the Harman DBX Venu 360 which can be had used off ebay for under $500 at times.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree completely with the OP's observation, and many of the subsequent comments. I my last house, I had Altec A5 Voice of the Theatre systems, with added JBL 2404 tweeters and EVM15s as subs... I could have those playing in the basement, go upstairs, and it would sound like there was a live band playing down there. Not just a distant thump-thump, but full spectrum, articulate. I miss that.

Here's some big-speaker DIY porn:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...ic-oblate-spheroid-CD-waveguides-in-solid-Oak
And this, which inspired the former:
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/audiophile.htm

My next build project, inspired by both of the linked audio adventures, will use:
2x Hartley 18" woofers
2x JBL 2204H 12 " mid-bass
2x JBL 2118H 8" midrange
2x JBL 2426J 1" CDs, on B52 PHRN-1014 waveguides
2x EV T350 UHF Tweeters

All in hand, and waiting for me to buy a measurement microphone and new usb soundcard before I start... oh, and a router table.
New thread on this project when I start, but it's inspired by the same observations posted in this thread.
Hartley 18s ... Pfft - you need the 24s!
 
I have to agree. You haven't lived till you have experienced, Big Altec, JBL or Meyer systems. They can be as focused as small system yet present the sound of a full orchestra, wind band, or Pipe organ as no other system can, Imagine 8 Altec 604 HPLN acting s woofer and tweet with two 291 1.4 inch drivers feeding a 311 horn as the mid tri - amped being pushed by 500 watts for the bass, 150 watts for the mid range and 500 watts for the tweeters. That a potential of 133 db at 4 ft. I was at an Altec seminar with these being the front 3 channels with three slightly smaller sets for the rears. With 16 421's especially modified to be used as subs below 50 hz. Imagine 124 db at 32 hz at 75 ft. This was in the middle 70's. I have heard even better from JBL modular systems in the 80's and of course even more from JBL line arrays. Its not so much the levels but the dynamics and the dimension of the sound you hear. Its like the Dead's wall of sound. The dimension was staggering. Thats why some folks will never give up their Klipsch, Altec, or Big JBL systems. Thats why I like Mac XR290 speakers. Sure there are systems with lower distortion that will almost play as loud etc etc. But there is something about the scale and dynamics of the sound most consumer systems can't match. I don't find it necessary today, but there was a time when I loved big dynamics with a large scope in reproduction. I really became disenchanted when movie theaters decreased in size their screens and scale. Early Cinerma was a thrill for me a kid. I still get a thrill going to the old restored movie theaters from the 30's and viewing movies on the large screens with modern sound systems and sound tracks.

It would be great to go back in time and bring home 24 Urei 813 monitors and stack them for use in a 7.0 HT system with 24 Mcintosh Mc 3500 power amps. Either using mini DSP or Room perfect equalization. With the right source material, Wow. No strain, smooth sound. Not perfect, but what scale and what dynamics. As much as I have spent on my STax headphones you would think I would have the ultimate. The sound is faithful to the recording process, but there is no scale in the presentation of the sound. Its like watching a movie on a 60 inch screen compared to a 100 ft screen. With the voices traveling across the screen not confined to a center channel speaker under or behind the screen. At least when Pioneer was making laser discs the voices travel across the screen, not confined to the center channel.

We love our sporty small cars of today that. accelerate in a flash get great milage and can turn and stop on a dime. But if I had my way I'd want a big Lincoln or Cadillac from the 70's to tour the good old USA. Can you imagine traveling the country in an enclosed Dual Cowl Phaeton Duesenberg with a chauffeur. Thats the way to travel. That's what our sound systems should be. A way to reproduce sound with scale, dynamics and pleasure as the the world spread before us as we travel in style.
Ah, the visuals you've put forth in my mind yet again ...
 
I finished restuffing the Electro Voice Empire's earlier today. This large scale sound thing is definitely the way to go. The old Empire's do a good job of that. Even in this 14x16 room. But this tweeter horn after the recap is a total flop. Not because it's a horn. It's this horn. It's to raw. This isn't going to work. And I'm not going to rework the speakers to fix it.
I got the wrong speakers.
 
Do you "feel" the weight of the pick on the strings and can you differentiate an upstroke from a downstroke. Can you "feel" the slap on the rim shot? Try that with itty-bitty speakers.


Ok, what cd is that? Great example, but you should try Trittico by Frederick Fennel and the Cleveland Symphonic Winds next, get ready for that big-ass bass drum wallop though.
 
These are JBL industrial parts aside from the Yuichi horns. I went with fully active filters. They are a big departure from everything I've heard and nearly all of it is positive. They pull me right into the music on good recordings. The parts are here to finish the Drew Daniels AA system and all of it will come together in good time.
I've heard the big Magnepans at a friends house and liked those too. He was a talented musician at the time and probably still is.

upload_2019-1-20_21-54-17.png

Do you "feel" the weight of the pick on the strings and can you differentiate an upstroke from a downstroke. Can you "feel" the slap on the rim shot? Try that with itty-bitty speakers.

Yep, that works for me.:thumbsup: One of my neighbor's favorite songs whether they like it or not.
What setup did you use to record the audio?
 
As long as I have a place to play them,
I'll keep large speakers as my listening pairs of choice!

... and yeah, where IS my copy of "Selling England ..."
Tho I think its the Bass pedals that make "firth" so amazing!

View attachment 1392641
That too. But a lot of speakers can produce that "feel it" bass. It's what sold me on the song in the first place. :) But I'd never heard that "upper bass power" in such a way before. It's something I'll never forget.
 
As long as I have a place to play them,
I'll keep large speakers as my listening pairs of choice!

... and yeah, where IS my copy of "Selling England ..."
Tho I think its the Bass pedals that make "firth" so amazing!

View attachment 1392641

I had to look that up on YouTube. It's the Genesis "Selling England by the Pound"?, and the song .....Firth of Fifth?

I couldn't detect much deep bass, what am I missing?
 
Back
Top Bottom