Law of diminishing returns...

[gonefishin]

...where are yours?


...what's your take on this?


You see this phrase used enough on various audio sites...what are your thoughts on this?

 

[WildWest]

Simply put...At a certain point, the priceerformance ratio begins to level off, and it becomes very expensive to achieve small improvements in sound. Beyond that point, improvements become ever smaller, but the associated costs increase logarithmically. That’s how the state of the art is advanced -- but I don't have to subsidize it -- I'll opt out of the escalation.

Audio manufactures have perfected the art of trickle-down technology. This means that when their statement-level gear advance the technology -- at great cost -- that technology will eventually be used in the products at the really affordable end of the line. So the wise buyer will utilize both the point of diminishing returns and the trickle-down philosophy to buy as much equipment as possible, incorporating as much of the top-end technology as has trickled down to that price point.

 

[eric the red]

The law of diminishing returns is illustrated by the fire-sale of the $2000.00 Philips SACD 1000 last year for $399.00. Here's a made in Belgium (not cheap according to Stan Warren who loves the SACD 1000) that smokes the $950.00 well-regarded Rega Planet 2000 on redbook (I just A-B'd the two in my rig last week), sounds great on SACD and is a DVD player. That's diminishing returns for Philips in my book

 

[MikE]

My System

Good question but the answer is too dependant on our values and associations really to be of much use to fellow enthusiasts. So for the purpose of sharing our thoughts it's fine but that's about it. I mean how can you debate someone who hasn't even heard the same components? And then there's equipment compatibility and system synergy... yada, yada.

So where do I draw the line? I suppose you could look at my system for the answer. One excpetion would be my PLC, which is pricey. I've heard two others that are cheaper and do some things better [some worse]. Those would be a used Audio Magic Stealth or the PS Audio PP. I think most audiophiles would be happy with either of the three. Only the obsessive would nit-pik them. Well, maybe the PS Audio is a bit too pervasive in it's "effect", however pleasant or unique that maybe. It's a coloration still. Oops, there I go. Better stop.

MikE

 

[willysan]

Anyone of us has in his/her mind the law of dimishing return and we apply our personal version to every object: audio equipment, cars, TV sets, etc...
Where is it? I don't know because in our choice appear both objective and subjective aspects.
It's obvious we don't have enough money to buy everything, therefore we spend money up to our own limit. Sometimes we see something better and think: "If I had more money, I'd buy this thing".
But sometimes we see something very expensive but can't find any important improvement. In that case we wouldn't buy that object even if we had enough money. In that case we've reached our particular line which, as I stated before, change from one person to another.
As WildWest pointed out the things we can't afford today are cheap enough tomorrow (think about computers!!!).
I can certainly wait a little bit.

 

[gonefishin]

There are many people that believe the law of diminishing returns starts and ends with Bose speakers...they see no reason to spend more money...because they've already got the best.

Now, that statement is not meant to be for or against Bose speakers. Many people truly believe that what they are on the edge of these diminishing returns...where they beat the whole system and found the ultimate price/performance system. I would agree with a few others...I just don't see this as an absolute or definite.

Simply put...At a certain point, the priceerformance ratio begins to level off, and it becomes very expensive to achieve small improvements in sound. Beyond that point, improvements become ever smaller, but the associated costs increase logarithmically. That’s how the state of the art is advanced -- but I don't have to subsidize it -- I'll opt out of the escalation.

This statement actually does cover it quite well...and can be used as a definition for the law of diminishing returns. But are these laws written in stone...is there one line that can be drawn where the law of diminishing returns can be found?



Do YOU believe you are sitting on or very near to the law of diminishing returns


(my feelings that just blows these "laws" out of the water...DIY)

 

[gonefishin]

oh...

Do YOU (I) believe you are sitting on or very near to the law of diminishing returns

naw...how would I justify two new sets of amps and a pre to the wife if I were at the edge of these laws?

 

[THOR]

For myself, my music taste and the way I like to replicate it and most of all for a guy with a family and with my current salary, I am sitting on the law of diminishing returns.

For me to gain any significant iprovements in my system would require much more money than I can rightly afford at this stage of my life

 

[Toasted Almond]

Diminishing Returns...hmmmm? It's kind of like all the times you had sex with 5 women at once, and then later realized 3 would have been plenty. I'm sure all you guys know exactly what I'm talking about.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

 

[millerdog]

diminishing returns is when you spend more on your audio system than the people or pets that should mean more to you.

 

[MikE]

Since Christmas...

I've spent exactly ZERO dollars on my system, and more was spent for X-mass presents last year than audio for the calender year. Of course, my system upgrade has been a "7 year project" and could be considered complete. It certainly makes me happy, but no, not as happy as the two boys. But against that competition what could?

MikE

 

[thepogue]

i draw the line...

where me wife tells me too!!!...or my returns get diminished!!

 

[tom1356]

It's like pornography. Hard to define but I know it when I see it.
Oh...there it is now...
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/M...OB_C37_C&Category_Code=VOLUME&Product_Count=2

What do you think a list of names of the people who bought this knob is worth??

 

[Andyman]

Well, one has to realize that there was significant R&D expenditure testing T1-T37 (or higher) lacquers to achieve the proper response. Not to mention determining the optimal amount of coats.

Let me see; does 4 coats of T37 really sound better than 3 of T42???:lmao:
________
College Girls Webcams

 

[Toasted Almond]

That young man in the image looks like someone who will grow up to know a good cheeseburger when he eats one.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

 

[michael w]

Originally posted by WildWest
Audio manufactures have perfected the art of trickle-down technology. This means that when their statement-level gear advance the technology -- at great cost -- that technology will eventually be used in the products at the really affordable end of the line.

The funny thing was with the advent of the digital age,
ie. compact disc we saw the flow of technology reverse.
Instead of technology trickling down it trickled up.

In the first decade of CD, it was the mass market companies that initially came out with the technical innovations that the High Enders built upon.

A process that is still continuing with the advent of multi-channel digital audio.


cheerio

 

[WildWest]

HUH!? I remember when the CD became available on the market. At first, one could only read about them in magazines for very expensive machines. Eventually they became available at a reasonalbe price point for John Q. Public. It's like the DVD/CD machine I currently have today. The quality of playback and outstanding chip in my Panny RP82 at one time was only available in their machine that cost close to a grand. But as with typical on the trickle-down affect, that became available for only a few hundred soon after.

 

[michael w]

Yes, the first CD players were expensive but it was the mass manufacturers Sony and Philips who introduced the technology.

The first High End machine, the Meridian MCD was based on a cheap, mass produced Philips, hence the flow of technology from mass market to specialist.

The mass manufacturers invent and license the basic technology, the specialists refine and improve.

Same thing applies to most HT technologies like digital surround sound and DVD.

It starts at the mass market end and flowed up to the High Enders.

Often when you see products like the RP82 perform as well as more expensive older models it is more the result of economies of scale coming into play.


cheerio

 

[dderat]

Here' another way of looking at the law of diminishing returns: The first bowl of chowder might be glorious, and possibly a second and even a third (we'll have to try that next time, Thatch). But at some point it's going to start losing its charm.

In audio I like to say you can get to 95% of the sound quality with 25% of the money. Each additional percentage of quality will cost increasingly. High end patch cords may likely be the last leg of the journey..

 

[tom1356]

Originally posted by dderat
Here' another way of looking at the law of diminishing returns: The first bowl of chowder might be glorious, and possibly a second and even a third (we'll have to try that next time, Thatch). But at some point it's going to start losing its charm.

In audio I like to say you can get to 95% of the sound quality with 25% of the money. Each additional percentage of quality will cost increasingly. High end patch cords may likely be the last leg of the journey..

If you are talking about DIYing a system in the range of the Wilson audio million dollar system displayed at CES I would agree with you, but if you are talking about something under lets say 10k for instance it's not even close.
Speakers are about the only place you can come close to the 25% figure if you don't include the labor.
The good news is it's an enjoyable journey.