Leben. Thinking something drastic here.

[sebrof]

Regarding the Leben being SET like, I too would take that with a grain of salt. Low powered tube amps have certain characteristics that are endearing, and I have no doubt the Leben has them. However, it is still a push pull topology with pentode tubes. These should have different sonic characteristics than a directly heated triode tube, that is used in a simple and direct circuit. The complexity of the push pull circuit is going to result in a different set of sonic characteristics. This is not to say the Leben is a bad amp, or inferior, or any other such nonsense.......but it should be different. Now here is the thing to remember, I don't own the CS300X, or have had it in my system, but I have heard it in causal conditions. So this is only my opinion, and there is conclusive evidence that what I surmise is correct. It is up to John to give this experiment a shot if he ever gets interested.
Regards
Mister Pig

I've had a 2A3 SET amp for over a year in my system, and just the other day I got a Manley Stingray. Parallel PP EL84s. I am surprised at how much of what the SET amp does I am getting with the Stingray. I haven't had another PP amp in this exact system, but I have had EL34 PP in a similar system before I dropped the SET amp in. When I first heard the SET vs. PP EL34 I heard the PP/SET contrast. I don't hear it with the EL84 PPP nearly as much. Of course the PPP amp does things the SET amp simply cannot.
I realize all amps are not created equal either SET or PP, so it may be a function of the particular amps I've had experience with. But at this moment I'm thinking it's the EL84. If I were listening to that Leben I wouldn't be in any rush to acquire a SET (although it would certainly be fun to hear one).

 

[Tom Brennan]

Which SET amp did you use Tom, do you remember?

It was an ASL which I owned for a few years. The sound was luscious with big tone, excellent clarity and a huge soundstage, very nice. But dynamically limited.

I heard quite a few SETs through the speakers, guys brought amps over when our Chicago Horn Club was active and I hosted meetings. Several sounded very good (and a couple sounded very bad) but none, through the 605s in the frontroom, matched the dynamics of the bi-amped (SS on bass, PP tubes on treble) VOT system in the basement. As one would expect of course.

Don't get me wrong, the dynamics of SETs and 605s were very good. But there were limitations that high E speakers with more power don't have (and there are certainly more efficient speakers than 605s available). But then one must always accept compromises of one type or another.

 

[Mister Pig]

It was an ASL which I owned for a few years. The sound was luscious with big tone, excellent clarity and a huge soundstage, very nice. But dynamically limited.

I heard quite a few SETs through the speakers, guys brought amps over when our Chicago Horn Club was active and I hosted meetings. Several sounded very good (and a couple sounded very bad) but none, through the 605s in the frontroom, matched the dynamics of the bi-amped (SS on bass, PP tubes on treble) VOT system in the basement. As one would expect of course.

Don't get me wrong, the dynamics of SETs and 605s were very good. But there were limitations that high E speakers with more power don't have (and there are certainly more efficient speakers than 605s available). But then one must always accept compromises of one type or another.

Friend of mine has a set of large DIY horns, using a pair of J hornfor the bass bins, a conical horn with RCA field coil from 100 ish on up to 12K, and a pro lightly flanged tweeter. Tweeter isn't shown in the below picture, but it is mounted where the legs of the j horn converge. Here is a pic of them. Over another part of the room is a 32 foot long subwoofer horn.

About a year ago he began experimenting with a pro level xover/time delay component, and digital eq. Studio grade stuff, forget the name now, know its from Australia. Anyways, the point being that he has moved the speaker project a long ways when he gave up on the passive x over system. The two smaller horns, have a pair of SET amplifiers on them, and the J horns have a tube PP amp. While the sub horn is using a plate amp.

As you know, there is a great deal of tuning available in this system, but its a ton of work too. Also things get complicated, and there ends up being a lot of components around. Personally I do not care for the way he has the speakers voiced, but he enjoys them, and thats what matters isn't it. But from what I have heard, you can make those speakers sound like whatever you want, within reason of course.

If I ever do get a chance to move to a multi driver horn system, this is something I would certainly consider experimenting with. But for the next couple of years I do not see me changing from the large BLH speakers with q generation Fostex 208 Sigma drivers. So no real need for that complicated set up tool, although I would think a high quality digital eq might be a worthwhile experiment.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Mister Pig]

I've had a 2A3 SET amp for over a year in my system, and just the other day I got a Manley Stingray. Parallel PP EL84s. I am surprised at how much of what the SET amp does I am getting with the Stingray. I haven't had another PP amp in this exact system, but I have had EL34 PP in a similar system before I dropped the SET amp in. When I first heard the SET vs. PP EL34 I heard the PP/SET contrast. I don't hear it with the EL84 PPP nearly as much. Of course the PPP amp does things the SET amp simply cannot.
I realize all amps are not created equal either SET or PP, so it may be a function of the particular amps I've had experience with. But at this moment I'm thinking it's the EL84. If I were listening to that Leben I wouldn't be in any rush to acquire a SET (although it would certainly be fun to hear one).

Certainly I agree that the Leben is a fine piece of gear. Some of the larger Cabasse speakers are known to like a few extra watts than with an 8 wpc SET amp can give, although there are certain 13 watt versions which can pass some serious amounts of current. Actually EL84 are a remarkable tube, as some value priced SET amplifiers have used them in a triode strapped configuration, and gotten excellent results. The overall point being that SET and the Leben will more than likely be different, and the question is whether there is enough of a difference to tempt John down that road. No way for him to know until he listens to it. But the pint of my first post is that a SET/Cabasse rig may displace his Quads, for in my experience...and this is just the opinion of a simple barnyard animal mind you....is that the low power tubes and HE speakers have close if not equal degrees of transparency and speed, but bring to the table a greater degree of micro dynamic contrasts. Signal purity is maintained in a way that no other audio rig does, due to the simple circuit and low parts count. But this is what I enjoy, and its not for everyone. The question is this. Is it right for John, and thats something he can choose to explore if he wishes too, I just encourage it, thats all.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

Certainly I agree that the Leben is a fine piece of gear. Some of the larger Cabasse speakers are known to like a few extra watts than with an 8 wpc SET amp can give, although there are certain 13 watt versions which can pass some serious amounts of current. Actually EL84 are a remarkable tube, as some value priced SET amplifiers have used them in a triode strapped configuration, and gotten excellent results. The overall point being that SET and the Leben will more than likely be different, and the question is whether there is enough of a difference to tempt John down that road. No way for him to know until he listens to it. But the pint of my first post is that a SET/Cabasse rig may displace his Quads, for in my experience...and this is just the opinion of a simple barnyard animal mind you....is that the low power tubes and HE speakers have close if not equal degrees of transparency and speed, but bring to the table a greater degree of micro dynamic contrasts. Signal purity is maintained in a way that no other audio rig does, due to the simple circuit and low parts count. But this is what I enjoy, and its not for everyone. The question is this. Is it right for John, and thats something he can choose to explore if he wishes too, I just encourage it, thats all.

Regards
Mister Pig

I'm going to try it- as I said, its next. I just kind of like where I'm at right now, and am sick of chasing a sound for the moment. I know what its supposed to sound like- I've heard the sound going in that direction first with the passive preamp and then with the Leben. And I've always wanted to at least try that route. Have I gotten there yet? Maybe not. But I'm ok, it'll give me something to chase next year. For now, I'm happy. I love this little amp.

Honestly, I don't hold out hope that its going to unseat the Quads. I like everything that they do, and the ones I bought are capable of pretty extreme dynamic swings with the Levinson, and the very-dynamic Klyne behind them. I honestly question what more anybody could want. I have not heard a better system. I've heard different, but not better.

 

[Mister Pig]

I'm going to try it- as I said, its next. I just kind of like where I'm at right now, and am sick of chasing a sound for the moment. I know what its supposed to sound like- I've heard the sound going in that direction first with the passive preamp and then with the Leben. And I've always wanted to at least try that route. Have I gotten there yet? Maybe not. But I'm ok, it'll give me something to chase next year. For now, I'm happy. I love this little amp.

Honestly, I don't hold out hope that its going to unseat the Quads. I like everything that they do, and the ones I bought are capable of pretty extreme dynamic swings with the Levinson, and the very-dynamic Klyne behind them. I honestly question what more anybody could want. I have not heard a better system. I've heard different, but not better.

Absolutely enjoy the Leben and the Klyne. I never said it, but I suspected the smaller Leben would be the more interesting piece, which was because it used el84 tubes. Surprised you never heard of Klyne, they really specialize in pre-amps, and make some of the finer ones out there. Certainly is a heavyweight for an active pre-amp, how are you liking the phono stage? The phono stage has been reputed to be fantastic.

Hopefully I will be around whenever you get a chance to have someone drag a SET over. Will be curious to know how it works out.

You know what else might be interesting with Leben? Reference 3A MM DeCapo, its a monitor style speaker with highish efficiency and minimal x-over. They have had a stellar reputation for a lot of years, and are the kind of speaker a small tube amp would work extremely well.

Just another thing to look at one day in the future.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

Absolutely enjoy the Leben and the Klyne. I never said it, but I suspected the smaller Leben would be the more interesting piece, which was because it used el84 tubes. Surprised you never heard of Klyne, they really specialize in pre-amps, and make some of the finer ones out there. Certainly is a heavyweight for an active pre-amp, how are you liking the phono stage? The phono stage has been reputed to be fantastic.

Hopefully I will be around whenever you get a chance to have someone drag a SET over. Will be curious to know how it works out.

You know what else might be interesting with Leben? Reference 3A MM DeCapo, its a monitor style speaker with highish efficiency and minimal x-over. They have had a stellar reputation for a lot of years, and are the kind of speaker a small tube amp would work extremely well.

Just another thing to look at one day in the future.

Regards
Mister Pig

Thanks for the recommendations on speakers. I've decided that yes, the Harbeths are not the speakers for the Leben but I can find use for them. The Cabasses are fantastic on it, but something more modern might be nice to try. The Klyne phono stage is why I bought it (well, haven't paid for it yet, but will)- as you know, I needed a phono stage, and the Klyne was mentioned to me, and it would kill two birds with one stone, as I wasn't completely happy with any of the preamps I've used with the Quads. And now, I'm happy with both the linestage and phono preamp. It is excellent already, and I haven't even gotten down to adjusting every parameter for my cartridge. I need to try the Klyne with a smaller amp into the Harbeths next. Right now its only been used with the Quads and the Levinson.

 

[ev13wt]

Audition it in your room first, before you start selling stuff. I know you are hyped and all, but hey, its not cheap.

edit... nevr mind me not reading the entire thread. Enjoy it, it looks very beautiful.

 

[JohnVF]

Audition it in your room first, before you start selling stuff. I know you are hyped and all, but hey, its not cheap.

edit... nevr mind me not reading the entire thread. Enjoy it, it looks very beautiful.

I know it was a gamble, as I was buying used and couldn't audition first, either in my room or elsewhere, at least not in the time I had given my travel schedule. But it paid off wonderfully.

I finally moved my best source gear over to the Leben, my Meitner CD/SACD player. This is now my main system. If I didn't like playing with different gear so much, I could EASILY sell the rest. I had been making comparisons with the Marantz CD player on the Leben and the Meitner and my turntable in the other system. The Meitner with the Leben tipped the scales. The other system is now my vinyl system.

I've read some disparaging remarks on this amp on other forums (plus a ton of positive), and a lot of people questioning its lower power. I honestly think it comes down to speakers and source. If it is allowed to do what it does best with efficient speakers, and has a very good source playing- it is among the best sounding gear I have ever heard.

 

[cubdog]

John, looking at your sig. line who would have guessed that 6 months ago? Funny how things work out. In many cases it seems our various components make audio decisions for us. The puppets controlling the puppetiers.

cubdog

 

[JohnVF]

Anybody wondering how this thing has held up for the two months or so I've had it? No? Well too bad, I'm gonna tell ya.

Since I put this in my more 'humble' system, the 'main' system has been gathering dust. I've listened to my main system maybe a few hours, and this Leben system almost every night. I can't explain it- the main system sounds as good, in a different way- it sounds good in ways you can point to, whereas the Leben system doesn't make me want to point to anything aspect of it. It just sounds musical.

The final allotment of gear is:
Marantz SA-11s2 CD/SACD player
Sony 2251 TT w/SME-3009 s2 arm.
Leben CS-300xs
Cabasse M2 Sloop loudspeakers.

Cabling is a hodge podge of whatever was laying around. Nothing special except the Nordost coming from the CD player. Speaker wires are WAY too long but whatever, sounds good. This system was about breaking the back of hi-fi obsession. Mission accomplished. I'm playing records again!

This is hands down the most fun system I've ever had. So freakin' happy with it.

 

[watt]

Very good to hear, John. I still envy you those Cabasse speakers.

(And your use of Carl is maybe your most inspired post move yet. )

 

[JohnVF]

Very good to hear, John. I still envy you those Cabasse speakers.

(And your use of Carl is maybe your most inspired post move yet. )

Howdy! I just need the Foreigner Belt and the Carl transformation is complete. At least mentally.

Did you ever get your SME-3009 up and running? I really like this arm, though it's a bit of a pain to set up/balance the first time..at least compared to some other arms, and the twisted leads were causing a problem that I thought was due to the side-balance weight, which was driving me crazy. What table were you putting that one? I was so very tempted by that table you had in BT.

 

[watt]

Did you ever get your SME-3009 up and running? I really like this arm, though it's a bit of a pain to set up/balance the first time..at least compared to some other arms, and the twisted leads were causing a problem that I thought was due to the side-balance weight, which was driving me crazy. What table were you putting that one? I was so very tempted by that table you had in BT.

I've used it on the Fairchild 412 and I cut a new armboard to try it on the Systemdek. I have too many turntables, huh? Do you remember that late 80s anti-drug PSA where the kid tells his dad "I learned by watching you!"? I learned by watching you!

I think I already have a turntable that needs to be shipped to you. The Roksan is, like, 10 times lighter. I could easily just put it in the box.

 

[the_nines]

... I wonder what else anybody would really need than this? Anything more is just experimenting-

Speaking of experiments why not experiment with auditioning a pair of Devore speakers attached to the Leben. You would be surprised :yes:

You don't have to buy, but the audition may just plant a seed in the back of your mind.

Best case scenario ... you like your present speakers.

Worst case scenario... the seed starts to sprout and Devore Fidelity becomes a bookmark on your computer.

this is the sound I started out looking for in this hobby.

Glad you found it (for now).

I'm just teasin' .... enjoy your Leben.

 

[JohnVF]

I've used it on the Fairchild 412 and I cut a new armboard to try it on the Systemdek. I have too many turntables, huh? Do you remember that late 80s anti-drug PSA where the kid tells his dad "I learned by watching you!"? I learned by watching you!

I think I already have a turntable that needs to be shipped to you. The Roksan is, like, 10 times lighter. I could easily just put it in the box.

Don't tempt me- you just might get stuck with a giant black darth-vader table that doesn't spin correctly . This copper mat would look nice on the Sansui, actually.

Speaking of experiments why not experiment with auditioning a pair of Devore speakers attached to the Leben. You would be surprised :yes:

You don't have to buy, but the audition may just plant a seed in the back of your mind.

Best case scenario ... you like your present speakers.

Worst case scenario... the seed starts to sprout and Devore Fidelity becomes a bookmark on your computer.

I've certainly had Devore in the back of my mind. The Cabasse speakers were a stop-gap that was purchased relatively cheaply to get something efficient in here, and I have to say that I've been more than surprised with them, and the Harbeths are actually in their boxes awaiting different stands and amplification. A future project, or possibly trade if I ever go the Devore route. So many people have nice things to say about that combination (and this amp was with Devore before, that is what the previous owner had IIRC).

The one thing the Cabasses have is they fit in my place, which is all decked out in Mid Century/Danish Modern. I'm shocked at how 'new' they sound- not a vintage sounding speaker, but it certainly looks it.

 

[Art K.]

Glad you are enjoying your setup, John. That's what it's all about IMO, forget the system and enjoy the music.

 

[JohnVF]

Glad you are enjoying your setup, John. That's what it's all about IMO, forget the system and enjoy the music.

Yeah, it took a couple of paths to get here but I think I've found the route that's right for me, now. I had thought a route like this would maybe not sound as good, but be more about music- but it actually sounds better than any other system I've had. Its just 'different'. I want to listen longer. My only wish was that the Leben could drive the Quads- then it would be perfect. Which leaves room for more experimentation...in another system, another day. Today I'll just be content.

 

[BrokenHill]

I have become a believer myself in a good PP 6BQ5 tube amp and using one
of those Magnavox 9303 amps with a modified Eico HF-85 preamp has had the
same affect on me as your Leben has had on you, it is different but man what a
sound, even when at lower listening levels it's just plain pleasing and when you
turn it up those little 6BQ5 tubes can really pump it out, a very musical tube.

I listen to all kinds of music and when I listen to the Blues the Maggie & HF-85
just out performs every other amp I own, so much so I have decided to start
thinning out the herd here, one Fisher 400 sold and 2nd one will go soon.

How does that Leben sound with the Blues?

 

[JohnVF]

I have become a believer myself in a good PP 6BQ5 tube amp and using one
of those Magnavox 9303 amps with a modified Eico HF-85 preamp has had the
same affect on me as your Leben has had on you, it is different but man what a
sound, even when at lower listening levels it's just plain pleasing and when you
turn it up those little 6BQ5 tubes can really pump it out, a very musical tube.

I listen to all kinds of music and when I listen to the Blues the Maggie & HF-85
just out performs every other amp I own, so much so I have decided to start
thinning out the herd here, one Fisher 400 sold and 2nd one will go soon.

How does that Leben sound with the Blues?

There's not a lot of Blues played here, but certainly a lot of soul. Sam Cooke live at the Harlem Square Club sounds fantastic. This amp has a quickness about it that really lets the music maintain all its drive and life.

The 6BQ5 sound of my Eico 2036 was one of the deciding factors in this purchase...