Leestereo's Restoration and Upgrade Of A Marantz 2325

Discussion in 'Marantz Audio' started by Leestereo, Nov 18, 2015.

  1. 0070julie

    0070julie I'm working on it!

    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    Canada
    Yes I sent the c
    Yes, the 270uf/50v are a perfect example of: they seem to be the same but i dunno...lets get both.... :D it is a very interesting world I just got into...gotta love my Marantz.. :)
     

     

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  2. Rasputin47

    Rasputin47 Woad

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    572
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    Nice to know the pn for those Panasonic film caps in 5% for future reference.

    KT, I also noticed that the mids on my receiver don't sound quite as "warm" after replacing the gray caps on the tone and amp boards, however it does sound more "refined".
     
  3. KutzlerTrans

    KutzlerTrans Jennie & I with Buddy and Barney. Subscriber

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    2,998
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    Maybe we should put them back in with a bypass....Were the hell (heck) is Patfont...:idea:

    Now were going to have to build a unit with dual power supplies, pre amps and mains just to satisfy every-bodies taste.... This stuff don't stop, does it

    R47, You may have hit on why my 2325 now sounds more like my 2330 that has no grey films in it.(p700) boards. I always wondered if warmth wasn't caused by a bit of phase delay as it goes through the amp.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  4. Rasputin47

    Rasputin47 Woad

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    I had two other 2325s here for a while at the same time and both sounded a lot better - cleaner / less muddy - than this one did.

    I really hadn't given the gray caps much thought on the tone and amp boards (though I did change them out by default on the phono board).
    The fact that Leestereo swapped them out and Lavane's comment made me think and decide to change mine as well.
    The only other caps I changed at the time were replacing the two ceramic caps on the tone board and the one ceramic on the amp boards with cog types as per Leestereo.

    Edit:
    The difference in sound by replacing those four caps suggests to me that the sound can be tweaked by using different cap choices in those locations.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  5. KutzlerTrans

    KutzlerTrans Jennie & I with Buddy and Barney. Subscriber

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    2,998
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    Exactly what Conradh said about warmth being an amp that is one with a circuit flaw.
    This could be a catch 22. It reminds me of building my v8 chevy engine. I wanted good torque, high rpms and horsepower. I couldn't have both. Porting and running bigger heads gave high rpms, but killed the torque at take off. Choking down the intake runners gave great torque, and with a loss on the high end. I wanted both but could not accept the fact that i couldn't, so i tried this and that and ultimately got my ass kicked in one way or another.

    I now understand the wall i just hit. I see the same thing going on here. I accept warmth or accuracy, but i cannot have both .. Unless...I raise the height of it and stack two sets of guts into one unit. :rolleyes: and put some twenty pole double throw switch on it.:D

    I prefer to have my warmth back, so i will be trying a few things to bring it back

    It would appear that the soundstage depth are related to an amps warmth in the way i prefer.

    Conrad said,

    "Will it help/change the sound? Not a clue. Same thing for resistors- I'm not sensitive to it, and so long as the value is correct, carbon films and metal films are pretty similar. Others may be younger, hear better and can tell more of a difference. I do use metal films in the feedback. Caveat- IMO "warmth" is a circuit flaw. Amplifiers shouldn't sound like anything. For me, tracking down sonic differences requires measurement, and often a lot of fiddling with the listening setup to even be sure the differences are real. You have a problem with a huge number of variables and any random changing of things just leads one in circles.""

    Conrad
     
  6. Rasputin47

    Rasputin47 Woad

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    "Amplifiers shouldn't sound like anything" - Conrad
    A wise man - I completely agree with that statement.

    I can't say I lost any soundstage depth on my receiver, it actually seems to be the same
    I think by replacing those gray caps with the Panasonic caps, the muddiness it had is now gone which may have presented itself in part as the "warmth" I was hearing. Being used to the sound of this receiver I noticed the difference immediately.
     

     

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  7. KutzlerTrans

    KutzlerTrans Jennie & I with Buddy and Barney. Subscriber

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    I am not sure to say it was muddy. It just seamed to have more what i would call Reverb in the mid section. Kind of the wrong word to use, but its the best word i can come up with. The only way to see if i'm full of (*&^$*&) is to plug in restored, "but not in such a drastic way", Boards and try it.
    I have a few backed up projects to deal with before trying it. I have to figure it out before tackling the pioneer marantz unit, being i am looking for the marantz warmth, with the pioneer balls.
    I have that PEO1 board to use as a Guinea pig and a few others.
    Pat gave me some real good info on what i did to loose the sound.
    He felt the stock marantz films are hard to beat. I made the mistake of pulling them all out.

    If i would have stuck with just doing the upgrades on this thread, i would have been OK.
    Pulling the brown and grey ones hurt the sound i like. They are going to be replaced again, using a formula pat fought hard to learn.
    I am getting off easy, but i learned my lesson about what not to do. (IMO)
    This 2325 sounds fabulous to anyone but me because i am forever a dented can:)
     
  8. Leestereo

    Leestereo Super Member

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    2,023
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    Ottawa, ON
    Although not proven per se, many claim that the "warm" sound of an amplifier is the result of even-order harmonic distortion products: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/2137-what-worst-even-odd-order-distortion.html.

    However, what has been shown experimentally is: polypropylene capacitors distort the signal less than the polyester capacitors, and these in turn distort less than electrolytic capacitors (and bi-polar electrolytics distort less than polar electrolytics).
     
    Rasputin47 likes this.
  9. Dingman

    Dingman Do you know where your towel is? Subscriber

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    2,312
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    There is some valuable advice here, IMO. I've re-capped a couple of units (2216 and 2230) and both came out sounding pretty sweet. Electrolytics were replaced, diodes and most transistors but the original films all stayed in.
    Then, with my 3300 pre-amp - I did change most of the original films. Now, the 3300 is close to sounding "muddy" - or I would describe as being bass heavy. Treble also sounds OK, but I think it's lacking a bit of mid-range. Not completely sure yet. The 3300 doesn't sound bad - it just doesn't sound "bright" or "clear". In fact, playing some vinyl thru it, I was impressed with how "smooth" the vinyl sounded. But then my SACD thru the aux input had that same "smoothness" which wasn't what I wanted at that point in time. HMMM.

    But I think the point is that changing out the original films might not be such a good idea.

    However, I'll mention again, those light blue electrolytic caps I took out definitely wanted to be replaced - ESR on them was all above 10 ohms and some close to 20 - quite high compared to the less than one ohm caps that went back in.
     
  10. jheu02

    jheu02 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Digging this up because I may be taking on a restoration for someone. Why the use of 250V caps other than that was what was originally used? Is there an advantage to it as I know the voltage the caps see is nowhere near that? And finally, is there any adverse affect by dropping the voltage rating down to say 100V
     
  11. KutzlerTrans

    KutzlerTrans Jennie & I with Buddy and Barney. Subscriber

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    The post was from a while ago, but hear is my answer.
    The bigger the film cap, The more it becomes an antenna. My next rebuild will also include orientating the bigger film caps in regards to the outer film. This will help by shielding noise from the amp.
    Putting your fingers around a film cap will open your eyes to this phenomenon.

    So my answer is to stay over the working voltage,(film caps) but anything over that has the positive of a longer life, but the neg of possible noise.
    I know this noise may be insignificant, but if your going to do the job, do it the best way possible. I know the input grey 1uf films on the 2325 pre amp are rated @ 250v

    They will never even come close to this voltage. I am not sure if it was a cost or availability, durability or sound reason for using them.
    Maybe it is a DC safety factor.
     

     

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  12. dgoulet

    dgoulet New Member

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    Fantastic info guys , I am just starting a rebuild on mine and this will help me a lot , there is one thing what about film caps on C-808 and 810 anybody knows there value ?
     
  13. Steven Tate

    Steven Tate AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I followed Leestereo's model and didn't replace those. I think they are the brown discs and possibly a brown film cap. I don't think most people replace them as they are generally very long lasting.
    Steve
     
  14. dgoulet

    dgoulet New Member

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    Location:
    Kelowna
    Great, thanks Steve how did your rebuild turn out?
    Looking forward to start , waiting for parts I am going to follow his model as well
    Keep on Rock'n
    Denis
     
  15. Steven Tate

    Steven Tate AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    The rebuild went great. I replaced all electrolytic caps, big filter caps and the transistors and diodes recommended by Leestereo. Also put new velum and LED lights everywhere. Had a couple of bumps along the road, but with the help of AK members, got them worked out. I now listen to that 2325 nearly every day. It sounds as good on subtle pieces as it does on the barn burning classic rock that I mostly listen to. Good luck with your rebuild.
    Steve
    Marantz2325.jpg
     
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  16. Leestereo

    Leestereo Super Member

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    @Steven Tate is correct, there is no need to replace C808 and C810, unless they are faulty; they are long lived polyester film types.
     

     

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  17. dgoulet

    dgoulet New Member

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    Nice unit Steve what a beauty these old Marantz , it is like a work of art , great thread Leestereo most helpful thank you
     
  18. Steven Tate

    Steven Tate AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Thanks! I am constantly drawn to the siren song of the etched black faceplate for these silver face Marantz units. The 2325 is especially beautifull dressed in black. But....so is the original. I just can't bring myself to mess with that beauty. So, I bought a black face plate for my 2245 to at least experience the dark side. :biggrin:
     
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  19. rBuckner

    rBuckner Luv 2 Restore Subscriber

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    ^^^ Ya little devil you!!! Is the new house about up and running?
     
  20. Steven Tate

    Steven Tate AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Got moved into my house and at the same time, my son, his wife and twin babies bought a house - big fixer upper - about a block from me. I paid for most of my remodeling, but they don't have the money. So for the last three months, I have been playing carpenter, painter, electrician and plumber every spare minute. Needless to say, my work area is on the back burner. But I'm living vicariously through AK and can't wait to get up and running.
     

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