Listening with my ears - and figuring stuff out...

[Two Steps]

Hey all!

This post is just an effort for me to process through some stuff and share my thoughts. I am 31 and a newby to the whole hifi thing. I wasn't around during the hey day of audio, so I'm just learning and listening as I go; using this forum as a barometer of sorts.

I've been running a Marantz 2230 as a pre with a McIntosh MC250 as a power amp, through a pair of Klipsch Quartets.

In my bedroom I have a Sansui 661 powering a pair of EPI 100's.

All electronics have been refreshed and the 100's have been re-capped and foamed. All audio comes from Spotify Premium through Chromecast audio.

What's interesting is, like em or hate em, the big ol' horn loaded 3-way w/ passive radiator Klipsch's are 'supposed to' be a superior speaker than the oldy but goody 2 way acoustic suspension EPI, but I've found the EPI sounds clearer and more realistic. I always hear guys say horns sound 'honky' like you've cupped your hands around your mouth, but out of context, it's hard to tell. When playing the same content through both speakers back to back, the difference is night and day. The Quartets sound fantastic with today's pop music and more electronic stuff, but really sound congested in the mids and vocals suffer on sweeter music such as jazz and singer songwriter stuff. Also, as prefaced, the vocals sound like they are in a tunnel when directly comparing them to the EPI's. Not a dig, just an observation while directly comparing the two. It wasn't noticeable when playing with no other reference point.

Also interesting is the electronics side for me. Again, on paper the 2230 and MC250 is supposed to be the bee's knees. But the synergy between the EPI's and the Sansui is something special for me.

I get caught up on all the ideology stuff, but at the end of the day, the simple 661 and 100's sound best to me. The sound is more clear and transparent vs the warm smokey and subdued sound of the 2230. Too bad it's not nearly as pretty as the Marantz and McIntosh pair.

I do wish that the Sansui had a power amp in feature (or whatever it's technically called) like the Marantz does. Because I 'think' the 661 would benefit from a larger power amp section while keeping the tone of the more clear and precise preamp of the 661. I guess that's where the 771 & 881 come in power wise.

Is it heresy (no pun intended) to run EPI 100's in a large 30' x 24' room? I've only had floor standers in here and don't know the correct style of placement for listening. I know your supposed to make an equilateral triangle and I can do that. It'll be aroun 9' apart and I'll be 9' away while listening. Is that qualified as near field or is it just listening like the were intended?

 

[darkblue94]

Try running your Sansui with the Klipsch Quartets and sit further back, also re-position the quartets away from the corner and further away from the back wall.

 

[HTWillie]

I think of nearfield as speakers being within arm's reach.

Don't get too wrapped up in how things are "supposed" to be. Just try stuff out and learn how different arrangements work. It doesn't take long to figure out if you're moving in the right direction.

 

[stevo137]

Your room reminds me of my living room, nice wood floors with a nice rug and things reflect and absorb.

I really enjoy music with nice, real wood floors, it really has some great acoustical qualities, especially low end absorption and resonance.

People visit and hear my little Advent 3's and ask where the subwoofer is but there is no subwoofer.

Try putting the pair of Epi 100's on your raised hearth (not on the stands) and see how they sound.

Your raised hearth is not as wide as mine and it's just a test but it will show you how placing speakers on the solid surface with brick or limestone can work very well.

Sansui with good small speakers placed properly can be really nice.

Your speakers look like they are placed pretty well but trying different things is part of the enjoyment!

 

[62vauxhall]

You might not be a "horn person". Nothing wrong with that, neither am I. The first speakers I owned that I did not make myself were Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater (VOTT) A7-500's - bought used in 1971. They sounded great in a sound room with lots of other woofer cones nearby to absorb things but once home, I found them aggressively bright. Great for parties though. After hearing other speakers coming into vogue back then with domes, I sold the Altec's within a year and have not owned or been swayed by horn loaded speakers ever since.

Several people I know who's interest in audio gear is as long lived as my own either have or aspire to horns. Nothing wrong with that if that's what they like but not my cup of tea.

Placement was mentioned. I am of the opinion that in general terms, horn equipped speakers are affected to a greater degree by room size/acoustics/geometry and character (live vs dead) than those without horns. To date, I have not been able to accommodate placement or environment sensitive speakers so those that are not have been a lot more satisfying not to mention practical.

 

[AudioSoul]

I think of nearfield as speakers being within arm's reach.

Don't get too wrapped up in how things are "supposed" to be. Just try stuff out and learn how different arrangements work. It doesn't take long to figure out if you're moving in the right direction.

This is very good advice. I wish I had taken it years ago. I always got cought up in others opinions and would buy and sell equipment accordingly. What you just described about your two systems just show its all about system synergy. You don't have to spend a lot of money to enjoy the music....

 

[Bodyblue]

I get caught up on all the ideology stuff, but at the end of the day, the simple 661 and 100's sound best to me. The sound is more clear and transparent vs the warm smokey and subdued sound of the 2230. Too bad it's not nearly as pretty as the Marantz and McIntosh pair.

Speakers are by far the components that gives your system it's "sound". Just swap your speakers and see the difference; you may find it is indeed the speaker and not the amp.

 

[JDub]

Try running your Sansui with the Klipsch Quartets and sit further back, also re-position the quartets away from the corner and further away from the back wall.

This plus get the Quartets off the floor. I run mine at least 15" from the wall and up on 14" stands, about 8 feet on centers. The Quartets should not sound congested (at least I don't think of mine as sounding anything like that). If you have a line level source (CD player), try feeding it direct to the Mac and then the Quartets. I have heard the Marantz house flavor described as a "three-martini sound" which may not be your preference. But try getting the placement right first.

 

[bshorey]

Every Klipsch speaker I've owned has given me listening fatique. While some folks love them, I've heard others who feel the same as I do. So maybe they're just not your thing. I will say, they sounded much better to me when powered by a tube amp.

Lots of good advice in this thread. That room does appear to be on the bright side, which may play well to the EPI's strengths and exacerbate some of the Klipsch's weaknesses. Moving the rug closer to the speakers might make a difference as well.

Have fun! That is a nice looking listening area!

bs

 

[orsen]

Every Klipsch speaker I've owned has given me listening fatique. While some folks love them, I've heard others who feel the same as I do. So maybe they're just not your thing. I will say, they sounded much better to me when powered by a tube amp.

i have had old klipsh and some new bookshelf, they are not for me, they are too bright
tho i know they are good ,,, just not for me

 

[Two Steps]

I have the Kipsch's about a foot away from the back wall - after reading they need some space for the radiator to sound appropriate.

I think the biggest two factors are 1) the sounds of different speakers (e.g. Quartets vs 100's) and 2) the tone of different preamps. I know this is a duh statement, as it is the foundation of everything we discuss here, but it is just what I am working through. For example, I plugged the Klipsch's into the Sansui and the system still had it's faults to my ears, and the Epi's being ran off of the Marantz sounded more subdued and less clear.

What I have walked away with is I believe I like the sound of the 661 preamp, and I like the clarity of the EPI 100's. Always chasing the rabbit I now wish the 661 had a more authoritative sound (power amp with bigger iron) that sounded bigger without having to use the Loudness button.

My next step this weekend will be to pull the Klipsch's out of the room and use the EPI's. I will place the EPI's in the corners a bit more, where the Quartets currently are, to get a bit more bass response. I will first run the EPI's with the Marantz and McIntosh, but if it still sounds subdued and smokey, then I guess i will just run the system with the slightly under-powered 661. We shall see...

My next goal is to get a dedicated McIntosh preamp (e.g. C28, C29, C33, etc.) and we'll see how that works with things.

I am still young and my ears don't require subdued sound. I essentially want to have the system melt away and I want to hear what was the goal of the original recordings. I'm hoping to achieve this without spending big "audiophile" bucks. Hence my theoretical question about what speaker size would be most appropriate for my larger room. a.k.a. should I not have bookshelf size 2-ways for my dedicated - non-nearfield - listening.

You guys rock as always; I love reading and learning.

 

[Bodyblue]

I would not be worried how your system sounds, just worry if you like how your system sounds.

 

[twiiii]

Have you ever attended live unamplified concert and recitals of the music you like? You need to do that quite often to train your ears so when you go home you can really judge your system.. If you are strictly a pop guy or rock and roll you are in trouble because none of the sound is natural as captured on a recording. So if thats your situation I feel for you.

It makes judging a sound system very difficult. Now if you were into small Jazz groups, dixieland, wind brass, piano, Classical or theatre organ, classical instrumental , vocal or choir, even classical guitar, it would be a lot easier. If you were a trained musician even easier, no matter the type of music. We sold both EPI and Klipsch, and I might agree with you, but placed correctly in the right environment they do a nice job, just as the EPI will in a different environment. So as the environment makes or brakes a speaker it seems to me if you re being honest with your self, that you haven't found the correct position for your Klipsch speakers in relation to your listening position or you have with your EPI.

 

[Two Steps]

Have you ever attended live unamplified concert and recitals of the music you like? You need to do that quite often to train your ears so when you go home you can really judge your system.. If you are strictly a pop guy or rock and roll you are in trouble because none of the sound is natural as captured on a recording. So if thats your situation I feel for you.

It makes judging a sound system very difficult. Now if you were into small Jazz groups, dixieland, wind brass, piano, Classical or theatre organ, classical instrumental , vocal or choir, even classical guitar, it would be a lot easier. If you were a trained musician even easier, no matter the type of music. We sold both EPI and Klipsch, and I might agree with you, but placed correctly in the right environment they do a nice job, just as the EPI will in a different environment. So as the environment makes or brakes a speaker it seems to me if you re being honest with your self, that you haven't found the correct position for your Klipsch speakers in relation to your listening position or you have with your EPI.

My basis for a good sound is the natural reproduction of tones and timbres of acoustic instruments, female vocals, and reed and brass instruments. I mostly listen to classic jazz, singer songwriter acoustic stuff, and Americana music that is very organic when it comes to recording (e.g. A SM57 micing a blackface fender, tweed, or Vox style amp with very little processing). A cliff notes version would be an acoustic guitar should sound like an acoustic guitar, and I want to hear the ringing of the strings and natural reverb from the room or chamber translate.

I actually am a musician and have a small stable of vintage or reissue guitars (acoustic as well) and amps. I also grew up in a very musical household and have been to every imaginable live music scenario from full choral ensembles to 8 peice un-mic'd rock and roll outfits. I have a pretty good ear and understand what I like and don't like, and what sounds realistic and what doesn't - I just don't know how that translates to hifi audio yet as I am slowly working through the different sound signatures of each company and style of speaker.

I can tell you in detail the difference between alnico and ceramic guitar speakers, and the tonal differences between each brand of single coil pickup, but I just don't have enough direct experience with the millions of variations brought to the table from 1969-1980 of all the major players in hifi.

I need to hear things first hand and I can only do that by buying and selling and hoping things I get into don't need work. Plus I'm married and the WAF has to work too

 

[johnda]

I have found that having a few different speakers in the same room can cause problems because the non-working speakers damp down some frequencies. It's hard to explain, but the effect is a dissatisfaction with the sound that is very subtle. Using the long wall of a room many times works out to a better sound that having the speakers on the short wall.

A hard room with wood or cement floors can sometimes be helped by an area rug, softer furniture and wall hangings.

Looking at the picture of your room, it looks prettty balanced so I would try removing the Klipsch's from the room and just use the EPI's for awhile and see how everything sounds to you. You could then do the opposite and use the Klipsch speakers alone.

What is important is how it sounds to YOU. Have fun!

 

[BilboBaggins]

I've had similar experiences to you. It has led me to avoid horns for one as I find them too bright and I don't want to go down the tube rabbit hole. I started off with a MAC1900 with Celestion Ditton 66s and learned my first lesson. Just because something is highly respected, it is a part of a whole, and there needs to be synergy amongst all the key components. I have put together systems that completely astounded me because everything was perfect, and the system cost me less than $200! I've had the 661, and I really liked it. Had a marantz 2230, and it didn't blow me away at all. Room is critical as is positioning. However, WAF is also a factor. You can have what you want and have WAF as well, but it will likely take some experimentation to get there. Some speakers are less picky about speaker placement. In my critical listening room, the speakers completely disappear. In my living room, where I spend most of my time, imaging is not as great, but that isn't the intent for music in that room. It does sound very very good though. So good that people can be sitting there with me, and suddenly go wow! Your system sounds great!

The point I'm trying to make, is play with it. Buy, listen, upgrade as warranted, sell what doesn't meet the end goal. Keep on doing that, and you will get there. My systems haven't changed dramatically in a few years now. I might try a different turntable, or CD player, but that is mostly it. I continue to try different speakers, but the mainstays are still there. I don't see my amps changing much anymore, but who knows what will happen? All my gear is big and heavy, but it fits in the listening spaces and WAF in the living room is perfect. The critical listening system is in the man cave, an area my wife rarely visits. If you have limited places to put the speakers, no problem. Focus on finding speakers that will work well where you want them. I've only had three or four pairs of speakers that actually worked in my living room, but all it takes is one, and then you have a good idea of the direction you need to go in. Rear ported speakers don't work there at all. Either front ported or acoustic suspension work best there.

Hope this helps! Good luck and have fun doing it.

 

[markkb]

I have some EPI 100s, and I like them, but maybe you need bigger acoustic suspension speakers?

One thing for sure, don't change that rug.... it really ties the room together.

 

[bimasta]

I have found that having a few different speakers in the same room can cause problems because the non-working speakers damp down some frequencies.

Correct. Just put your finger on the woofer and midrange of a disconnected speaker while playing music through your main speakers. Feel the cones vibrating, even though they're not playing — it's absorbing (canceling, killing) vibrations from your main speaker, robbing you of some music.

 

[JoeESP9]

Correct. Just put your finger on the woofer and midrange of a disconnected speaker while playing music through your main speakers. Feel the cones vibrating, even though they're not playing — it's absorbing (canceling, killing) vibrations from your main speaker, robbing you of some music.

I agree with this. If you must have all those extra unused speakers in the room you should short the input terminals.

 

[Two Steps]

I usually only have one pair of speakers in the room at a time. The picture from my OP was just showing what I was working through at that time - A/B ing both sets of speakers and switching between the Marantz/Mcintosh setup and the Sansui 661. I was trying both sets of speakers through each receiver and noting what I was hearing. I had to have them all in the same room so the room dynamics stayed the same and I could use the same source material to compare.