LP's vs CD's

[ProAc_Fan]

However it is also my understanding that a cd is capable of higher dynamic ranges than vinyl. So in this respect a cd would be superior.
Anyone care to comment?

Huh?? The dynamic range of CD's is artificially limited to 20hz-20Khz since the early days of CD's. If you listen to modern CD's you'll find that almost all are artificially "louder" all the way across the frequency range because most listeners couldn't care less about the louder of softer passages inherent in music. Vinyl has huge dynamic range, but as with any system, your gear must be able to extract and playback the frequencies or its all a moot point anyway.

Mike

 

[Yamaha B-2]

Yes, CDs are artificially limited because it is less expensive to do so. One of the major reasons that SACD and DVD-A is having a slog in catching on as the "next format" is that the folks who provide the music are shooting it in the foot. They digitize the music for CD and then refuse to spend the additional $5-10K to redigitize for the much greater dynamic range of SACD/DVD-A. Simply feed the CD format signal into the SACD/DVD-A system and the end result is no better than CD (except for a quieter background). And then they want us to pay $5-10 per disc more. And buy another piece of gear to play it on. I don't think so.

This was discovered by one of the reviewers at Stereophile. Guy has good ears. He played the CD and then the SACD layer and could hear no difference. Did a couple more with the same result and then started investigating. That's why one must be very circumspect when buying their music. The jerks that put it out do anything to make it cheap. They are only selling a name and not the music. Definitely sucks.

Wasn't it Patrick Henry who said "give me vinyl or give death". He was right.

 

[WhiteSE]

I am all for vinyl,,,BUT, if I choose the best SQ CD's I have, like the some MIke Oldfield HDCD's, JVC XRCD's, or modern Jazz recorded with proper common sense, like Allan Holdsworth's All Night Wrong, or David Bromberg's Wood, or him with japanese drummer Akira Jimbo, they sound amazing in the own right, partly because of the CD player.

Then I listen to a CD released in the 80's,,,,and yuck!!!!

 

[styler]

Mark Levinson SACD

Mark Levinson's record label has SACD done right. check it out:
http://www.redrosemusic.com/about.shtml

 

[styler]

Read This

Mark Levinson: CD vs. SACD and LP

Most music lovers feel that there is something wrong with the CD. Many prefer the sound of their LP's, or have cut down or stopped listening to music without even realizing why. Classical CD's aren't selling, while LP's of the same repertoire fetch hundreds of dollars a copy. People used to have 20 or 30 LP's and enjoy them, while now, people have hundreds or thousands of CD's which they rarely listen to, and almost never hear all the way through. What's going on?

Research shows that the pulse code modulation (PCM), the operating system of the CD, has limitations that so far cannot be overcome. There is something about listening to sound that has been processed with PCM which is stressful - the opposite of what most people seek in listening to music.

Sony has introduced a new digital operating system called Direct Stream Digital (DSD) which doesn't seem to create this stress reaction. DSD sounds much better than PCM, but more importantly, it is like analogue in the sense that it is very relaxing and joyful to listen to. DSD is the operating system of the new Super Audio CD (SACD). With good SACD recordings, people find they want to listen to music again with excitement and satisfaction. Because of DSD, it is now possible to revitalize the music world. Combining SACD with RRM equipment brings out the full benefits of SACD.

For a number of reasons, it will take time to bring DSD to full development. This is a vast undertaking which requires new professional equipment, new residential equipment, SACD pressing lines, and software. It is a multi-billion dollar project which requires research and development, manufacturing, education and promotion, support from the hardware and software sectors, and many other factors to succeed.

At the RRM store in NY, we have played DSD recordings for thousands of people during the last four years. Virtually everyone is amazed and wants the technology in their home. RRM sells no conventional CD players, only SACD players (which also play CD's of course), because all our customers want to be able to listen to SACD's.

We have learned that no matter how much money is spent on CD players and CD-based systems, the results are never truly satisfying. But with SACD, even a modest system brings great musical enjoyment. Many people listen to CD's if there is something they really want to hear, but the trend is to go away from PCM to either SACD or LP.

LP's have the advantage because there is so much repertoire available. Old pressings and new releases offer unlimited choice of artists and repertoire, often for modest cost. As SACD's come out, there will be more attention given to the format, but it will take time for a substantial amount of software to appear. In 2001, Sony made 3,000 SACD players. In 2002, Sony is making 4,000,000. SACD players start at under $300, so there is no cost obstacle anymore. A number of companies are making SACD players now, with enthusiastic reception from the press and public, clearly indicating that SACD is without doubt the audio technlogy for the future of quality music reproduction.

 

[Mike Cole]

LP does it for me

I listen to about 90% LP, although since I bought a new car with a CD player only, I have been listening to a lot more. I have been disappointed in CD since about the 4th or 5th CD I bought. I really wanted to like it, but the proof was in the pudding. At the time, I thought that I just needed to upgrade my CD player though. A while back I had about $2800 worth of CD player and it did not do it for me. I have since downgraded to a $200 NAD. I'll stick to my LP12/Dynavector for the time being.

Mike

 

[hotgas]

Dynamic range definition: An audio term which refers to the range between the softest and loudest levels a source can produce "without distortion."

With distorsion in the definition, in theory LP's dynamic range is only 80dB while CD's is up to 96dB. In reality with real music the range may be much less for both formats.

 

[hotgas]

I also find this article interesting.

http://www.web-ee.com/Electronic-Projects/projects/dynamic/index.shtml

 

[Dennis Gardner]

Sorry for the lengthy ramble back into vinyl nirvana!

A rather common thread throughout this thread and others that have attempted to compare the two mediums have this in common.

CDs can sound nearly as good as vinyl as long as you can get them to sound like vinyl. This is really an indictment of the CD. You haven't seen anyone post about how accurate their system is at the reproduction of the media, only about how much better the correct setup adds to the the lp or disc. Many that love listening to lps or CDs have used tube amplification somewhere in their system to give it warmth and make the recordings bloom. This is a hardly accurate reproduction, but does truly add to the enjoyment of the critical listening process. It brings "life" back to the recordings, and we all know life is analog by nature.

I found that when I recently got back into vinyl after 20 years gone by, that I had been fooled into "casual listening" by the ease of the CD. No thought had to go into the setup, cleaning, or starting and stopping or the neat little disc. This slowly transformed me, along with raising 5 kids into a casual listener like most of the general public. This has been tantamount to stripping me of all the enjoyment that I got from music throughout my early years as a musician from the age of 5 through becoming an instrumental music major in college.

I actually thought that my love of music had changed since I gave up smoking a little weed and that the party surrounding music was what I loved most. My recent reintroduction back into the wonderful world of vinyl has proved that I not only don't have to get a buzz to enjoy good music, it is the music that puts me into the euphoric state that I recalled from my youth.

My next journey will involve the putting together a CD transport system that will approach the enjoyment level that I am getting from my vinyl setup. This may include tube preamps or amps to get the fullness and warmth that excites me about lps.

My vote would be that for critical listening, nothing can beat vinyl, but for packing your music in the noisy environ of a car, motel, airport or other transient conditions the CD is about a good as it gets.

Thanks to AK for the awakening,

DG

 

[styler]

Eloquence

that is a perfect statement. nicely said, there is a difference between convenience and critical listening. i stream music thu airtunes on a regular basis because its pretty good, and its super easy. but, when i sit in my dark room and want to chill, nothing beats my tubes and vinyl. well said. thank you. lastly, some music sounds just fine thru a crappy system... setting plays a huge role in the experience. rememer that long drive across the country and you pulled in that far out am and heard some unusual but great music that somehow was just right for the moment....
tyler

 

[melofelo]

vinyl vs digital

if you have a decent vinyl source....stick a sony minidisc recorder that uses atrac version 4.5 type r..(or even type 4) where your tape deck and cd 'used' to be.. and after recording a few of your favorite lp's taking care not the let the meters go into overload ..stick a pair of grado cans on your ears ..turn the lights out ....and while you scrutinize the sound for its recently 'cloned' fidelity with the new found convenience of remote control to cue and navigate your vinyl collection :thmbsp: ...(thus prolonging the life of your probably outrageously expensive stylus not to mention records :yes: )...ask yourself this question...
why did sony quickly switch back to an older version of its atrac software so soon after practically every machine that used the 4.5 type r version got excellent reviews ?

 

[melofelo]

interesting quote..

"I want to hear the musical note, not the fingering sounds. "

some would argue that if you can hear the musical notes AND the fingers or plectrum that created them then your actually closer to whats on the mastertape... :scratch2:

 

[Yamaha B-2]

ask yourself this question...
why did sony quickly switch back to an older version of its atrac software so soon after practically every machine that used the 4.5 type r version got excellent reviews ?

OK...you've got me. Why did they?

 

[melofelo]

...

...it was TOO good

 

[tcdriver]

Both LP's and CD's can sound good and both can sound bad. I enjoy listening to both and still buy both formats. I like LP's for the variety of music that I can buy for less than a dollar. I like buying SACD and DVD-A for the multichannel recordings that can add greatly to the music listening experience.

tcdriver

 

[tcdriver]

LP format advantage

One additional advantage for the LP is that the album cover graphics and liner notes are much easier to see and read. I was listening to the 1959 RCA Metropolitan Opera recording of AIDA yesterday. It sure was nice to be able to read the libretto from an LP sized booklet rather than a CD sized booklet. :thmbsp: By the way, this recording,purchased from one of my favorite record stores, only cost me 25 cents plus sales tax. :thmbsp:

The very last line of the booklet: “You can buy today, without fear of obsolescence in the future”

tcdriver

 

[melofelo]

vinyl forever !

for me the single biggest advantage of vinyl reply is its tweakability...most modern formats are pretty 'hands off ' when it comes to tweaking the sound...if you don't like a component's sound or it doesn't gel with the rest of your system..often your only alternative is to try another model...( an expensive way to upgrade :thumbsdn: )...with a T/T you can buy a 2nd hand base unit for relatively little outlay...and with careful sourcing ( ebay ) try a combination of affordable arms, cartridges and tweaks till you get the sound your happiest with...also reliability is built into affordable decks like thorens regas systemdeks aristons and even some of the mid 80's rotels through good engineering and decent parts...in the case of rega T/Ts...what other digital source comes with a lifetime warranty ?...
in the case of recordings that were first mixed onto mastertape...well tape is subject to deterioration as the electric particles within in the the tape layer lose their magnetic charge over the years...its my guess that some of the cd remasters from master tape have higher levels of background noise simply because the master tapes themselves have deteriorated with age...perhaps the original vinyl pressings in good condition are actually the closest in terms of fidelity to the original performance..surface noise or not...
try comparing a good quality jazz recording from the 60's on viynl to its digitally remastered equivalent and you might be surprised just how much 'fidelity' was actually cut into those grooves in the 50's 60's and 70's...possibly far more than commercially available T/T's of the time were actually capable of retrieving :yes:

 

[RGA]

The debate will rage on no doubt - I'll take the Turntable. However I'm considering buying the Audio Note DAC 1.1x if i ever get some money.

I recently heard the CD 3.1 model from them and was stunned. Yes I'm an Audio Note fanboy. Not a big name company but have a belief system than seems to run counter to most of the industry. Damn fine turntables too. The affordable ones are based off of the SystemdekIIS and their second best table is a reworked Voyd Reference.

The DAC requires a few minutes of listening because they sound quite a bit different than the Rotel, Linns etc of the world. The dac 4.1 was reviewed not long ago by someone quite skeptical of tube amps and turntables - http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue8/audionote.htm - he's come around to the turntable apparently as well.

Sometimes it's simply a matter of listening to the gear in the same room properly set-up. my NAD was ever so slightly off and I barely used it preferring the CD player - a slight tweak a better cart(still no world beater though) and the cd player is used only for background noise while doing homework - or if I don't have the album on vinyl.

The cambridge is quite an excellent transport as the CD 6 was the same as the Disc Magic with several independant power supplies and balanced. But the AN DAC's are music reproducers while the CD players I've heard and own are tizz and boom pyrotechnics makers.

 

[harleyx]

Grumpy may be the only active member that feels stronger than I on this subject.

Vinyl absolutely crushes CD playback. Both my vinyl rig and primary CDP are quality components and FWIW I have about the same amount of cash invested in both. I recently purchased a vinyl copy of what I considered one of my best sounding CDs. This is a digitally mastered piece of vinyl so you'd think it'd be close. NOPE The vinyl is so much more alive, inviting and open.

My experience suggests the only advantage of CDs is they are easier to play. But your results may vary.

B I N G O ! ! !
My collection started in the early '70s as vinyl, then when CD's came out I jumped into them (as we were told they were FAR superior).
Now, many years later, I favour my LP collection by far.
They're not as convenient as CD's, but no matter the naysayer, all I have to do is put on a CD then the duplicate LP and they're converted.
Many new releases are on LP as well..I bought Springsteen's 'The Rising' recently.

 

[Donny]

It was 15 years since I heard a record again and now I have to say I prefer cd's I tryed a new un opened lp on a player that has had less then 30mins of use (I just made sure it worked back in 1989) it sounded really bad I had humm and little bass