LP's vs CD's
- Thread starter progger7
- Start date
Justen
Send Lawyers,Guns & Money
Rob Babcock said:
The word, and sound, we seek here is interstitial, that being the point between two points.
Mathmatically speaking, there are in infinte number of points between any two points regardless of where they are. Digital has to draw a line and not sample past a given point. Analog allows two points or frames of sound to blur or overlap. This blurring or overlap would be the interstitial between say two notes. Vinyl (and tubes, and all analog devices including the original notes played on any non digital instrument) preserve as much of the interstitial sound as possible and add their own to it, thus creating warm and cold sounds.
That being said, I think digital sounds really good, especially modern recordings versus original analog converted to digital. And I'd say that the average cd played on the average stereo will sound better than the average lp played on the same. But a great piece of vinyl on a really good setup is far more humbling than a cd.
Not to mention interstitial is a great word to bring up when dealing with boring audiophile talk!
I don’t think I’m really old enough to appreciate vinyl. When I was really young, all I ever used were tapes. CD’s were certainly an improvement over tapes, and that was that.
I do use vinyl occasionally, but mainly on those special occasions where I want to listen to some oldies rock and pull out one of my parent’s old records.
Also, the idea of something degrading each time you play it just doesn’t sit well with me. I guess it’s not that big of a deal, but even if CD’s don’t sound as good, at least it will still sound like that 1,000 plays later.
I do use vinyl occasionally, but mainly on those special occasions where I want to listen to some oldies rock and pull out one of my parent’s old records.
Also, the idea of something degrading each time you play it just doesn’t sit well with me. I guess it’s not that big of a deal, but even if CD’s don’t sound as good, at least it will still sound like that 1,000 plays later.
melofelo
Addicted Member
...what matters to me is not the medium itself...whether it be cd vinyl sacd md dvd whatever..its whether the sound is 'convincing'....
a flute should sound as good as flute can sound for the money i pay to reproduce it when i press "play" or "start"
..a piano should sound like an instrument made of keys hammers and strings in a wooden enclosure..
cymbals like cymbals and not a sibilant rasp...
and perhaps most importantly stevie wonder should sound like the same man i heard live give or take a few years or so...and the bass on walk on the wild side by lou reed should sound 'rough' 'brash' ..the strings resonating clearly when plucked just like a real instrument should...
in terms of realistic sonically convincing bangs for bucks...
especially buying second hand... :scratch2:
...well set up vinyl still cuts it better than most mediums i've heard imho
quite how a minidisc recording of a vinyl record can sound better than a commericially released re-mastered cd was the first shock i had when assessing new formats...
but to my ears it did..and by a good enough margin for me to think of investing more in a record player when funds become avaialble before jumping on the newest format wagon...
even linn did the pepsi challenge with its own lp 12 and totl cd player at an audiophile convention once...the LP12 still ruled the roost according to the vote of the blind listening panel..
and the LP12 is by no means the best vinyl player out there...
some even argue that cheaper decks have its old design beat in terms of information retrieval..
my own system can in no way be considered expensive....
but then i always let my own 'un-audiophile' ears decide...
works out cheaper in the long run
a flute should sound as good as flute can sound for the money i pay to reproduce it when i press "play" or "start"
..a piano should sound like an instrument made of keys hammers and strings in a wooden enclosure..
cymbals like cymbals and not a sibilant rasp...
and perhaps most importantly stevie wonder should sound like the same man i heard live give or take a few years or so...and the bass on walk on the wild side by lou reed should sound 'rough' 'brash' ..the strings resonating clearly when plucked just like a real instrument should...
in terms of realistic sonically convincing bangs for bucks...
especially buying second hand... :scratch2:
...well set up vinyl still cuts it better than most mediums i've heard imho
quite how a minidisc recording of a vinyl record can sound better than a commericially released re-mastered cd was the first shock i had when assessing new formats...
but to my ears it did..and by a good enough margin for me to think of investing more in a record player when funds become avaialble before jumping on the newest format wagon...
even linn did the pepsi challenge with its own lp 12 and totl cd player at an audiophile convention once...the LP12 still ruled the roost according to the vote of the blind listening panel..
and the LP12 is by no means the best vinyl player out there...
some even argue that cheaper decks have its old design beat in terms of information retrieval..
my own system can in no way be considered expensive....
but then i always let my own 'un-audiophile' ears decide...
works out cheaper in the long run
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ProAc_Fan
Addicted Member
Rob Babcock said:
Geez I don't know about that!!
My Museatex Melior I-DAT DAC cost over $1,200 and on many recordings my humble Thorens can out perform it. There are ,of course, many caveats when it comes to vinyl. As previously mentioned, it takes much more effort to spin vinyl than to drop a coaster ( Grumps term not mine) in the CDP. I am a perfectionist at heart. I will not play any vinyl that has surface noise or any other audible imperfection. You can count me amongst the converted. I'm only in my mid 30's so I was pretty much endoctrinated into the idea that digital MUST be better. It's taken me quite a while to learn differently. Just curious, how come almost all serious speaker reviewers spin vinyl on really nice rigs to evaluate loudspeakers? Maybe they've learned a thing or two as well.:yes:Mike
Trawlerman
Well-Known Member
I have a decent setup for both Vinyl and CD. The vinyl front end is £2k and the Digital stuff is Krell at £12k. I've been at this lark for some time so I know what i'm listening to.
More often than not I prefer listening to vinyl because it has a life and warmth that is sometimes lacking from CD. The main point for me with a vinyl system is that there are 1000's of LPs out there at knockdown prices just waiting to be for people to pickup. Add to that there are many LPs that have been and never will be released on CD. The major downside is that i'm not able to transport LPs as easy as CD's and I certainly can't play them whilst at work opr whilst travelling.
Although I really enjoy my LP's, there is much to be said for CD. It's ease of use for one. No messing with cleaning them and they travel much easier (able to listen on the bus, car, at work, out walking etc.). All new releases are available on CD but not always so on LP.
As with most things - It's horses for courses. The debate for LP's vx CD has raged for 20 years and will undoubtedly continue for another 20. They are two vastly differing formats that cannot really be compared and they can be likened to apples and oranges. Neither format need be discounted though, because if you have the time and put in the effort one is rewarded with remarkable sound from both with little outlay.
In the end, all that really matters is that you enjoy the music. Once that stops then the whole argument becomes pointless. Take any professional musician, they can enjoy music for what it is and not what it's being played on. Clapped out 60's Dansettes are just as enjoyable as $$$$$ systems to them because they listen to the music. Perhaps we should follow suit?
More often than not I prefer listening to vinyl because it has a life and warmth that is sometimes lacking from CD. The main point for me with a vinyl system is that there are 1000's of LPs out there at knockdown prices just waiting to be for people to pickup. Add to that there are many LPs that have been and never will be released on CD. The major downside is that i'm not able to transport LPs as easy as CD's and I certainly can't play them whilst at work opr whilst travelling.
Although I really enjoy my LP's, there is much to be said for CD. It's ease of use for one. No messing with cleaning them and they travel much easier (able to listen on the bus, car, at work, out walking etc.). All new releases are available on CD but not always so on LP.
As with most things - It's horses for courses. The debate for LP's vx CD has raged for 20 years and will undoubtedly continue for another 20. They are two vastly differing formats that cannot really be compared and they can be likened to apples and oranges. Neither format need be discounted though, because if you have the time and put in the effort one is rewarded with remarkable sound from both with little outlay.
In the end, all that really matters is that you enjoy the music. Once that stops then the whole argument becomes pointless. Take any professional musician, they can enjoy music for what it is and not what it's being played on. Clapped out 60's Dansettes are just as enjoyable as $$$$$ systems to them because they listen to the music. Perhaps we should follow suit?
melofelo
Addicted Member
"In the end, all that really matters is that you enjoy the music. "
so true...although vinyl at heart..i've heard mp3's sampled at the worst bitrate possible of a song that never made it onto cd....never hit the charts so was never re-issued...but someone somewhere had the original bit of plastic and 'remastered' it for anyone who had the priviledge of hearing it first time round and never found it on any format since....
my analog allegiances fall flat in those minutes when the 'download complete' dialog box pops up and i race towards the volume control on my 'pc' input cheapo amp with circa 197(?) £2 at oxfam Ross re-272 studio monitor samarium cobalt (whatever that is) headphones complete with boom boom bass and tizz tizz treble.... playing that long deleted 'track' just like i remebered it in 1982
so true...although vinyl at heart..i've heard mp3's sampled at the worst bitrate possible of a song that never made it onto cd....never hit the charts so was never re-issued...but someone somewhere had the original bit of plastic and 'remastered' it for anyone who had the priviledge of hearing it first time round and never found it on any format since....
my analog allegiances fall flat in those minutes when the 'download complete' dialog box pops up and i race towards the volume control on my 'pc' input cheapo amp with circa 197(?) £2 at oxfam Ross re-272 studio monitor samarium cobalt (whatever that is) headphones complete with boom boom bass and tizz tizz treble.... playing that long deleted 'track' just like i remebered it in 1982
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soundhd
Active Member
House de Kris said:
All I did was reply to the main thread here. My comparison of the same title on CD vs vinyl was that the vinyl came out sounding better ( I used Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon"). Sound stage was deeper, a little wider. Overall it was a bit more warmer.........don't know what else I can tell ya.
As for my cables, I use Transparent Link 100's for the interconnects between my system pre-amp, crossover and amps. I use DIY cables using DH Lab's Pro-Studio cable and Ultimate RCA Connectrors between the TT, phono pre-amp and system pre-amp.......I just put my 4 1/2 cents in....
Bryston Pre-Amp, Crossover, amps.
Phillips SACD 1000 (Modified by Alex at API HiFi)
VPI Scoutmaster TT on A Ginko Cloud 10 Isolation Platform
Sumiko Blackbird Cart.
Quicksilver Tube Phono Pre-amp
VPI 16.5 Record Cleaning Machine
JBL 4350 Studio Monitors
Yamaha B-2
registered user
The folks who are listening to and enjoy recorded music at the "high-end" are getting older. By "high-end", I mean those of us who pursue the best sound we can afford, which is not Meg3 or compressed FM. Judging by what I read in the various rags and articles about recorded music either we are nostalgic for our youth (LPs) or we are returning to LPs because more and more of us are hearing a better sound from vinyl. At least that is the case for me. Redbook CDs have an 'edge' that I can only listen to for an hour or two before getting audio fatigue. Not so with vinyl. In fact, I may just keep the Dual 1219 I got for my brother because I can stack my multi-LP opera music on it and not have to get up and flip them over every 25 minutes. No question that there are many good arguements for CDs. The strongest being that of convenience. Especially with 192kHz upsampling or SACD. But if one is here for the best reproduction of music, vinyl is where it is if you have $700 or so for a decent rig.
Rob Babcock
Active Member
ProAc_Fan said:Geez I don't know about that!!
Mike
Yeah, I pretty much started at the other end, that LP must be better. My musical "gurus" pretty much brainwashed me early on, but I broke free of it. Free will and good ears are a wonderful thing. :yes:
I almost regret even posting in this thread, but it's comforting to see the best old wive's tales will never die. Most of the Luddites on this site will keep barking at their shadows; at AH, vinyl lovers will get the ridecule that round-earthers get here! :lmao: I guess it's what Disney calls the "Circle of Life." It's worms in a jar- it keeps the internet moving.
Have fun with the 150 LP's (15 of any value) released each year. They'll still sound stiff and mechanical (LPs are by definition mechanical...), but you can keep you bell-bottom, mullet lovin' cred! :thmbsp:
melofelo
Addicted Member
...
the only way to settle the debate is a three way test
taken blindfolded.... :yes:
...
..
.
vinyl
vs
digital
vs
live..
three slightly different 'takes' of the same song using acoustic instruments and the same musicians...
one on black plastic
one on shiny plastic
one live in the same acoustic space the first two were recorded in..
add the most neutral amp available
the most neutral speakers
then square up the best turntable avaalable at any price against the best cd player available at any price..
play the band first...
then cd
then vinyl
then the band again...
and ask them which is the real thing...
a simple count of the amount of times vinyl or cd is mentioned should give an order of ranking...
assuming that either technology can actually claim to be close enough yet to simulate a live performace...
...if it ever happens please post the results... :thmbsp:
hats off to anyone brave enough to publish the results..
the only way to settle the debate is a three way test
taken blindfolded.... :yes:
...
..
.
vinyl
vs
digital
vs
live..
three slightly different 'takes' of the same song using acoustic instruments and the same musicians...
one on black plastic
one on shiny plastic
one live in the same acoustic space the first two were recorded in..
add the most neutral amp available
the most neutral speakers
then square up the best turntable avaalable at any price against the best cd player available at any price..
play the band first...
then cd
then vinyl
then the band again...
and ask them which is the real thing...
a simple count of the amount of times vinyl or cd is mentioned should give an order of ranking...
assuming that either technology can actually claim to be close enough yet to simulate a live performace...
...if it ever happens please post the results... :thmbsp:
hats off to anyone brave enough to publish the results..
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mobydud
Analog Again
Someone said that an LP has a "mechanical" sound because it is a "mechanical" device and you can't change that.
Damn right it's a "mechanical" device. Just like a real drum set..a real piano..a real clarinet..a really bitchin' Fender Strat screaming through a Twin Reverb amp..a Stradivarius, is I do believe a "mechanical" device.
Like all real instruments. Mechanical.
Unlike a computer generated facimille thereof.
Cd's reproduce data. Vinyl records play music.
Pretty much sums it up from someone who has been down both roads and come back again.
Damn right it's a "mechanical" device. Just like a real drum set..a real piano..a real clarinet..a really bitchin' Fender Strat screaming through a Twin Reverb amp..a Stradivarius, is I do believe a "mechanical" device.
Like all real instruments. Mechanical.
Unlike a computer generated facimille thereof.
Cd's reproduce data. Vinyl records play music.
Pretty much sums it up from someone who has been down both roads and come back again.
shstrang
Vivien's Daddy
One thing I noticed is that if I take an LP (if it sounds good already with decent vinyl) and dub it to a CD-R (Marantz CD-R 615 with A/D being done in my Sony DAT recorder) it keeps that same sonic character that I loved about the LP to begin with.
I can buy a copy of an album on CD and compare it to my LP counter point and often find the LP copy more appealing.
The same is true with open reel tape x-fers to CD-R too.
My turntable is junk (Yamaha belt drive with Audio Technica cart and Stanton pre-amp).
It floors me that I can take my consumer junk and make better sounding copies than when purchasing a stamped CD version of an album.
I can buy a copy of an album on CD and compare it to my LP counter point and often find the LP copy more appealing.
The same is true with open reel tape x-fers to CD-R too.
My turntable is junk (Yamaha belt drive with Audio Technica cart and Stanton pre-amp).
It floors me that I can take my consumer junk and make better sounding copies than when purchasing a stamped CD version of an album.
melofelo
Addicted Member
digital copy of vinyl
"It floors me that I can take my consumer junk and make better sounding copies than when purchasing a stamped CD version of an album."
...
..
.
it floored me too... :yes:
especially when i read reviews of affordable minidisc recorders that could make even a *nak dragon* nervous in mid flight...hm.. :scratch2:
so i bought one...
4 years & 100 recorded discs later...
nak who ? :thumbsdn:
red book wot ? :thumbsdn:
...
..
perhaps my next upgrade is to insert an analog *gainometer* thingymagig :lmao: in between the recorder and the source input and set the minidisc recording input level to 0db. ..apparently it should record even better that way
anyone know where i can source a *good quality* analog gainometer thingymagig ?... :scratch2:
"It floors me that I can take my consumer junk and make better sounding copies than when purchasing a stamped CD version of an album."
...
..
.
it floored me too... :yes:
especially when i read reviews of affordable minidisc recorders that could make even a *nak dragon* nervous in mid flight...hm.. :scratch2:
so i bought one...
4 years & 100 recorded discs later...
nak who ? :thumbsdn:
red book wot ? :thumbsdn:
...
..
perhaps my next upgrade is to insert an analog *gainometer* thingymagig :lmao: in between the recorder and the source input and set the minidisc recording input level to 0db. ..apparently it should record even better that way
anyone know where i can source a *good quality* analog gainometer thingymagig ?... :scratch2:
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