Lube alternative to Deoxit F100 for carbon potentiometers

The use of silicone lubricants is a definite no no in the world of electronics and is well documented. Just google it. NASA are amongst those who do not allow its use near contacts, never mind anyone who services mixer consoles.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2005ESASP.591..125W

Uh, no. First off, did you even read this paper which has no bearing on the instant matter?

I refer you to the bottom of the third page. I keypunched this because it was faster than saving the pages and loading into Acrobat. Typos may exist.
The conclusion from this evaluation was that there were silicone deposits in many places including the track and the brush. This silicone was identified as coming from an amount of RTV silicone used to insulate the brushes and to hold the brushes, and provide damping against vibration. [...] It was decided that the brush configuration within the potentiometer should be changed. Instead of wire brushes embedded in silicone, it was decided to change to a finger brush that is directly attached within the potentiometer.

Ok? This cherry picked paper concerns an outerspace application with high vacuum where RTV silicone used as an insulator liberated silicone oil which was deposited all over the place. As I've repeatedly stated, silicone oil has creep. Silicon grease does not. It is very stable. Repeat after me: silicon oil != silicone grease.

Silicone grease is routinely used for avionic and aerospace applications. Works great for vacuum pumps. Many decades ago I worked in a physics lab which used it as a lubricant on all sorts of vacuum gear.

An important lesson to be learned here. Kids, don't put poor-quality RTV silicone into spacecraft. Stay in school, too. Don't smoke crack, either. (Can't forget that one.) Most important: don't cherry pick your papers and if you do, best read the paper before citing it as a definitive source.

My work here is done.
 
BTW: silicone grease is commonly used as a damping grease for microscopes, cameras, telescopes, and other mechanical devices where verniers should remain in place.
 
Bottom line is you have to read the catalogs, data sheets and MSDS to be sure of what you're using. Most companies have a variety of products and they have a habit of spreading critical information around in different documents. Caig, for example, has several flavors of grease. Superlube too. Their most popular grease isn't silicone, but they also sell one that is. They scatter technical information between the data sheet, web FAQs and white papers, and the catalog. IMO, silicone isn't a great lubricant for metal on metal applications like bearings, but excels with soft materials (automotive weather seals) and low psi applications. You'll also find heavy silicone oils used for tonearm damping. IMO again, it's good to ask what NASA thinks, but remember that their applications are different from your living room
 
Uh, NASA didn't think anything. That paper was written by some subcontractors for a specific piece of gear, and it has no meaning with respect to lubrication down here in the gravity well. It is not a position paper on the use of silicone grease in any application.

Again, silicone grease is the optimal lubricant for a potentiometer as it protects the resistive element from damage.

Silicone oil is a very thin lubricant so it won't work for bearings. That's why grease, which stays where it's put, more or less, and which coats the bearing is a better lubricant. Compatible with plastics and rubbers, too.

So, again, that paper is completely irrelevant and should not be considered to have any applicability for this application.
 
The world of lubricants is a confusing place and even with good research you can reach some wrong conclusions. The world of electrical lubricants is even worse. The following are things I believe to be true, but based on all the other bad info I've found, I'm willing to change my beliefs at any time:

Superlube grease is not silicone grease. It's a PAO based lubricant thickened with fumed silica and 5 micron PTFE particles. IMO, it's one of the best things out there for both electrical and other uses. It should last a long time without thickening or changing in any way. I've contacted them and they do recommend it as an electrical lubricant.

Superlube oil with PTFE is good for places where you'd oil something, but I don't use it for contacts or pots, just bushings and rollers (like for tuner cords).

Superlube low viscosity oil without PTFE is great for sintered bearings, say in turntables or similar where you don't want PTFE particles.

Common #2 or thinner greases (and damping greases) do not lift contacts in operation. You'd think it was a risk, but at the scale and pressures it would be a rare occurrence.

It's essential to have a lubricant on contacts and on most pot tracks (but not all).

Vegetable and animal oils are usually better lubricants then petroleum oils. That's why they're commonly used in metalworking, lathe and mill work, drilling and tapping, etc. Unfortunately, with the exception of sperm whale oil that used to be used in clocks and watches and a few other exotic oils, they don't age well. They gum up, dry up, go rancid and are otherwise troublesome. Keep the lard out of your pots!

You'll rarely know exactly what materials are used for pot tracks. That means that all lubricant choices are a bit of a crap shoot in terms of long term compatibility.

Almost all greases are dielectric greases, insulators. In very thin films (like contacts and on pot wipers) there is no problem getting good low resistance contact.

Grease is generally a base oil, thickened with various soaps or other things. If you want to know about a grease, examine the base oil properties, then the thickener.

Damping greases are used in pots and can be designed into three different locations. They can go in the bushing and damp the shaft. They can go on the pot track itself, providing both lubrication and damping. They can go on a spring loaded rear disk, providing better damping because the radius is larger. Or any combination of the above.

Here are some links I've found useful, but follow the additional links and did deeper to learn anything. There is no one good source of info:
https://www.nyelubricants.com/connectors (read various linked items on page)
https://www.nyelubricants.com/stuff...e6f182944af7f1/en/lubenote_potentiometers.pdf
http://www.santolubes.com/industry/electronics/ (you can't afford this stuff, but it's probably the best there is)
http://www.aerosil.com/product/aerosil/en/products/ (sometimes used as a grease thickener, also in food products and cosmetics)
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30727/determine-grease-compatibility (watch out for grease compatibility if you don't clean well)

Don't forget that Caig has several greases with Deoxit. Haven't tried 'em yet.


Given the varieties of Super Lube available, I could use some confirmation/clarification on the appropriateness of this Super Lube grease to restore the "feel" in a mixer fader that I've already treated with Deoxit F5.


Fader.jpg
 
Small reboot of this thread.

Caig DeoxIT products seem to be unavailable, or at least very hard to find in Canada.

Which type of Super Lube silicone, or other lubricant, would be suitable for conductive plastic and carbon track elements that undergo tremendous use over their life?
 
Caig DeoxIT products seem to be unavailable, or at least very hard to find in Canada.

The Caig products are thin silicone sprays which suffer from over-spray and creep, and DeOxIt is a cleaner, not a lubricant.

Which type of Super Lube silicone, or other lubricant, would be suitable for conductive plastic and carbon track elements that undergo tremendous use over their life?

The silicone grease with PTFE (tradename Teflon) stays in place and will for decades properly lubricate controls.

Here's some of what I previously wrote about silicone spray lubricants versus silicone grease, slightly edited together. It may clarify some of the issues such as "dielectric grease", contact lubrication, and the creep of the silicone sprays.

Many times the resistance to turning a switch or potentiometer is not friction in the contacts but metal corrosion around the shaft. For loosening a seized shaft a silicone oil is superior to a conventional oil or penetrating oil because the Si-O-Si bond angle is readily deformable, so it moves with very low energy. The flexibility helps the silicone to better migrate into the shaft/body junction. But that flexible bond is why silicone oil suffers from creep, i.e. it migrates over the rest of the control and even onto circuit boards, and why an oil or spray oil is not the best choice if the lubricant must stay in place. Silicone grease, however, is oil plus fumed silica, so it stays in place and doesn't wander.

In the olden days a dollop of animal-fat based grease was placed in the potentiometer or switch during manufacture. Over the years that grease turned into wax. Consider the sticky sludge resulting from cooking oil in a kitchen, which is the same problem. The advantage of a thicker grease is that it stays put and tends to hold the control in place, preserving the setting. In more recent times the animal grease was replaced by a petrochemical mix, typically with the addition of a solvent to thin a waxy material; over-time that solvent evaporates, hardening the grease, plus the grease similarly polymerizes (the individual bonds in the lubricant molecules cross-link into a giant macro-molecule) into a waxy material.

A thinner lubricant does not offer the same advantages as grease, and the silicone oil used in sprays tends to creep. With a silicone spray, the lightweight petroleum carrier for the lubricant and the lubricant itself will diffuse into the existing hardened grease and soften it.

Purported "lubricants" like 3-in-1 oil are poor lubricants and poor penetrating oils. Such products consists (or at least used to consist) of a blend of high molecular weight-oils (i.e. thick) with a low molecular-weight solvent to make it flow. Think about adding a solvent like naptha, kerosene, or toluene/xylene to an oil or wax to make it more spreadable. This is why furniture wax contains a thick wax and a solvent. Once the solvent and light weight oils evaporated or polymerized the viscosity increased. The older 3-in-1 tended to polymerize into sludge. Liquid Wrench is similar, in that it is a penetrating oil consisting of a thicker oil thinned by solvent.

It is a great misconception that non-conductive grease, such as silicone grease or dielectric grease, is either not needed or will interfere with normal operation. That bit of internet nonsense endlessly recirculates. The grease layer between the contacts is vanishingly thin, and it consequently is easily and readily displaced by the wiper pressure. The term "dielectric grease" is actually a misnomer which confuses internet forum participants; the term simply means that the grease is itself non-conductive and that it prevents the entry of conductive materials, especially particulates or water. This is why such grease is used around connectors. It does not mean that the lubricant somehow "insulates" the contacts from each other. Standard practice, in fact, dictates coating external connectors exposed to the elements to reduce or even prevent corrosion by reducing the ingress of moisture, oxygen, or other corrosive gasses.

A superior, if not ideal, lubricant is a dollop of viscous silicone grease. That prevents mechanical wear, is chemically inert and non-flammable, and prevents the potentiometer from readily moving once set.

Caig's FaderLube — the old name before the Great Caig Renaming was "CaiLube MCL" (MCL stood for "Movable Contact Lubricant") — is silicone, and you'll find complaints that it gets everywhere and doesn't add sufficient viscosity. Mixer techs don't like to use it. The reason, again, is the Si-O-Si bond is very flexible and easily bends. Hence the creep.

Silicone grease is made by mixing silicone oil with fumed silica. That's the recipe by definition. All grease means, at least in the chemical vernacular, is a thickening agent dispersed in a liquid lubricant. So Superlube Silicone Lubricating Compound, which is great for lubricating moving parts, is a silicone grease which tends to stay in place. Food grade, too, in case one suffers from pica. (I do not, just in case anyone was wondering. Yeah, I know, TMI.)

Grease is commonly made from a base of animal fat, petroleum, or silicone to which a thickener, typically a soap (aka stearate), is added. Animal fat is chemically identical to many vegetable oils, by the way. Which makes sense as this is where we often acquire them.

Soap is commonly made by reacting fats with a strong base (commonly metal hydroxide of some sort). In practice this is sodium hydroxide (lye) plus fat. The historical way of making soap was to add wood ash (a source of sodium hydroxide) to liquified animal fat which had been cooked to separate out any non-fat components. (The specific gravity of the lye was checked by floating an egg in the wood-ash solution. Remember this trick when you need to make soap after the zombie apocalypse and can't find a hydrometer.)

Lithium grease replaces the sodium (or potassium) hydroxide with something like lithium hydroxide, or something similar. Calcium hydroxide and aluminum hydroxide produce other greases. The properties vary for shear strength, resistance to oxidation, etc.

Grease hardens for a few reasons. The major cause is temperature: when grease is overheated the oil can boil out and polymerize (crosslinks to form a sticky material) and the thickener congeals. If the grease is spun in a high-speed bearing the centrifugal force — yes, sigh, this is a "fictitious force" as was hammered into us in first semester physics, but it still is the simplest way to explain it — acts much like a centrifuge and thus separates the layers. The oil can oxidize, so anti-oxidants are often added. After many years the antioxidants are exhausted and the oil turns into sludge. Oxidation is the common failure for rotary controls in audio, btw. Not enough centrifugal force or heat.

Silicone grease doesn't use a soap, but it does bind the silicone oil to the thickener, which prevents creep as is the issue with ordinary silicone oil which have creep.

I have been using Super Lube for years and have suggested it for potentiometers because it stays put and makes a control which is quite viscous in movement, a very handy feature for controls which should not move once put into position. Such as with mixer consoles. Silicone grease is commonly used as a damping grease for microscopes, cameras, telescopes, and other mechanical devices. The thin spray lubricants do not have such properties.

Comes in a 3 oz tube, says "Silicone Lubricating Compound" with Syncolon (PTFE) on the label. From the manufacturer's website:
No connection to the company other than as a satisfied customer.
 
Thank you,

I wasn't quite as specific as I should have been. The products of interest were Caig DeoxIT F100L and their FaderGrease, but the brand as a whole is unavailable in my region.

I've had a tube of translucent Kleen-Flo EZE Slide "synthetic dielectric grease #331" on the shelf, and the only chemical listed is silicon dioxide, SiO2. I don't see the oil component mentioned, but expect it to be polymer of siloxane like silicone grease. Basically the same thing and safe for our purposes?
https://www.kleenflo.com/msds/331.pdf
 
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That product is for lubricating brake calipers. I suspect additional additives not showing up on the MSDS. My experience with lubricating car bits is ancient, and I don't remember if brake grease contained conductive ingredients or thickeners for high-temperature use. Dunno.

The Super-Lube product is available from the evil empire (aka Amazon) and is just silicone grease and PTFE. I can vouch for it, but not other products.
 
Another vote for CRC 2-26. Great stuff. I have used it extensively in slide type pots. Contact cleaner cleans them but leaves them stiff and jerky. The CRC 2-26 restores their smooth motion.
Rick
 
Another vote for CRC 2-26. Great stuff. I have used it extensively in slide type pots. Contact cleaner cleans them but leaves them stiff and jerky. The CRC 2-26 restores their smooth motion.

CRC 2-26 is a sprayable petrolatum and mineral oil (lightweight oil) — similar to, but thicker than, the Vaseline product, which also is petrolatum — with thinning solvent to make it spreadable and a surfactant to improve flow. It is similar to 3-In-One oil in its long-term uselessness.

Ingredients:
Distillates (Petroleum), Hydrotreated Light: 60 - 70%
Light Mineral Oil: 10 - 20%
n-Butyl Stearate: 3 - 5%
Carbon Dioxide: 1 - 3%
Petrolatum: 1 - 36%
Sorbitan Monooleate: 1 - 3%

All in all, an inexpensive lubricant which is inferior to the Super-Lube product I above described.
 
Small reboot of this thread.

Caig DeoxIT products seem to be unavailable, or at least very hard to find in Canada.

Which type of Super Lube silicone, or other lubricant, would be suitable for conductive plastic and carbon track elements that undergo tremendous use over their life?

The Caig Deoxit products are currently available in Canada from RP Electronics. I just ordered a few items, but wasn't able to get the Fader Grease because it is out of stock until May sometime. As it happens I have a tub of the Super Lube on hand anyway. Bought it a couple of years ago when I was rebuilding a Kitchen Aid mixer.

XrayTonyB has a youtube video on this that is interesting. You may not agree with his take on the Deoxit Red, but it is an informative video in any case.
 
The Caig Deoxit products are currently available in Canada from RP Electronics. I just ordered a few items, but wasn't able to get the Fader Grease because it is out of stock until May sometime.

The SDS suggests this product is nothing fancier than any conventional silicone grease, with a bit of cleaner added, although it certainly is far more expensive.

As it happens I have a tub of the Super Lube on hand anyway. Bought it a couple of years ago when I was rebuilding a Kitchen Aid mixer.

Yeah, great stuff, isn't it?

I've used Super Lube in gearboxes for old drills, DC motors, and AC shaded-pole motors. The quality of the motors in the older blenders/mixers, juicers, food processors, etc. are of a level no longer seen except in the most expensive models, and even then I'm not so certain. All these units need is a replacement of the ancient grease and they're back in business for another thirty years of use. I have repaired juicers and blenders made during the Kennedy administrations which required nothing fancier than replacing the congealed grease with modern lithium grease or silicone.
 
The SDS suggests this product is nothing fancier than any conventional silicone grease, with a bit of cleaner added, although it certainly is far more expensive.



Yeah, great stuff, isn't it?

I've used Super Lube in gearboxes for old drills, DC motors, and AC shaded-pole motors. The quality of the motors in the older blenders/mixers, juicers, food processors, etc. are of a level no longer seen except in the most expensive models, and even then I'm not so certain. All these units need is a replacement of the ancient grease and they're back in business for another thirty years of use. I have repaired juicers and blenders made during the Kennedy administrations which required nothing fancier than replacing the congealed grease with modern lithium grease or silicone.

The Kitchen Aid mixer I restored belonged to my mom. I think she bought it back in the 80's or 90's. My dad had already re-lubed it with wheel bearing grease (haha...), I cleaned that out, lubed with Super Lube and passed it on to my daughter when I bought a new Kitchen Aid from Costco. I am not sure the new one is anywhere near as good as my mom's old unit.
 
A Canadian distributor of Caig products is partsconnexion.com - and as a bonus, the spray can items they have seem to all be the older/conventional type, not the despised "Perfect Straw" type.
 
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