Lurked for a while and started posting recently ...

MJKing

Active Member
My name is Martin J. King (hence MJKing as an alias) and I have lurked on the forum for a few years. I recently registered and have posted a few responses on the speaker forum. Been around the Internet and on various forums for over 10 years, I drift in and out as I find something of interest to discuss or as a forum thrives or dies.

I am a mechanical engineer during the day working for the man doing computer modeling, analysis, and simulation work but my real interest/passion is speaker theory, design, and building. I have been studying and building speaker for almost 25 years. A few of them actually turned out OK.

Sometimes my ideas and projects go against the grain of what is typically done with a specific driver or enclosure type, I don't like to automatically conform to the "correct" answer or the way it has always been done in the past for a given speaker design problem. I always try and think outside of the box.

I probably will not post a lot but I will add my 2 cents if something is of interest or fell I can contribute positively.

Martin
 
Martin,

Thanks for joining in. Stepping outside the conventional wisdom is how new ideas are born, new products are developed, and great things given life! Don't be shy about any of that. You, like me, are an "idea guy." Always looking for the better mousetrap, and perhaps better, trying to figure out a way to make conventional mousetraps irrelevant. That's a good thing, because trust me, conventional mousetraps aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Let me ask you this, since you're a speaker designer/builder: Materials have improved, production techniques vastly improved and made consistent, but do you ever see a day when we reproduce sound differently, altogether? I've stepped away from the audio world for two decades, a self-imposed exile born of the priorities I chose... So forgive me if I missed out on any new technologies in this department. I'm still stuck mostly in 1986-7, audio-wise.

Before I sold off all my stuff, in pursuit of a more perfect union(a marriage to be,) I had just taken receipt of a pair of SDA SRS by Polk, but the speakers I had while those were on layaway at the post exchange were a pair of BES flat panel speakers. They really weren't all that unconventional in terms of the way they worked, except for the foam sheeting, and the ultra-thin design. They were roughly(from a failing memory) roughly 22" wide, 34" tall, and about 6" deep.

Wait, here's some I found on an old Ebay auction googling around:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/B-E-S-SM-270-AUD...8QQihZ007QQcategoryZ14993QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Reading the description, it seem my memory isn't quite so bad.

Anyway, they were different from everything else around at the time, and contrary to the ad on ebay, they were only any good at low volumes. They didn't like bass, and if I used any sub-synth at all, they sounded as they would come apart. My question for you is: dropping out of the audio world when I did, have there been any further developments along these lines?

Thanks, and again, WELCOME!

Mark
 
Welcome aboard....Looking forward to your .02 in speaker theory and design..:thmbsp:




Bill
 
Welcome Martin! Good to have another ME onboard here. All this electronics stuff is just ... well.....magic! Gimme nuts and bolts any old day ....
 
It is terrific to see you here, sir!

He's too modest... Martin King "wrote the book", for those of you who don't know him.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/

I have personally benefitted from his work :) (albeit by way of Bob Brines and my friend Mike Berg).

TQWT.jpg
 
My name is Martin J. King (hence MJKing as an alias) and I have lurked on the forum for a few years. I recently registered and have posted a few responses on the speaker forum.

Martin,

Welcome. I've read the stuff on your site with interest (and occasional bewilderment) and read a lot of posts from you on DIY forums. Welcome aboard to this much more convivial environment.

It is terrific to see you here, sir!

He's too modest... Martin King "wrote the book", for those of you who don't know him.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/

I have personally benefitted from his work :) (albeit by way of Bob Brines and my friend Mike Berg).

Yup, and I've got his worksheets this year as well.
 
Thanks for the warm welcomes. Much appreciated.

markamerica had an interesting set of questions. Personally I think that the capabilities of speakers is continuing to improve and that better and better designs are coming out all the time. The tools available to DIYers are better then what the pros were using only a few years ago. Computing power is available to everybody. I am not sure where audio is going but I believe it will be an interesting trip for speaker designs.

However I do see a down side and I will repost what I wrote earlier this year on a high end publisher's forum. In my opinion home audio is in trouble.


The Probable Death of HiFi Audio
--------------------------------

If I look back at my growth in audio starting as a teenager and compare it to the parallel growth of my oldest child (who is about the same age I was when I started collecting music) and his audio experience, I see the decline of the audio market and predict the death of most home based high quality music reproduction systems in the next 10 to 20 years. I'll start in the mid to late 1960's when I was just a little younger than my son is now, lived in this same town, and was finding I was very interested in popular music just like he is at this time. By drawing comparisons to what I experienced and his interests, I am not very optimistic for two channel high fidelity equipment.

My Path :

At my son's age I was already a big music collector. My entire allowance and any other income was typically spent in the record department of a large local department store. I bought the Beatles, Cream, the Who, and the Rolling Stones to name just a few groups. Big album jackets with covers to study and hidden pictures and lyrics added to the experience. I listened to these albums on my parents big console stereo cabinet and my brothers and I made plenty of smoke every time we blew it up forcing my Dad to replace the cooked tubes. When my friends got together, we listened to the albums in our collections which drove our parents nuts.

By the time I got out of college (late 70's) and started my first engineering job, I new the most important thing to buy was my own decent hi fi set-up. Again I saved and invested in equipment, upgrades, and even more albums. I read Stereo Review, High Fidelity, Stereophile and a number of other magazines. I frequented the half dozen or more local audio stores and bought equipment every year, probably every few months. As time went on, I dragged my new wife to many different audio stores, record shops, and friend's houses to listen and compare set-ups and music. Music and audio was my interest and still is to this day, but things have changed.

In those days, evry home had a hi fi system of some kind. Hi fi systems werte sold in all department stores (even Macy's and Sears had a stero department) Most of my friends had a stereo systems in our rooms (my Dad was too strict for that idea). Listening to music was a major part of our day and having the latest albums was an important goal. When my friends and I got our first cars, everybody installed tape decks and rear deck speakers and made cassettes of our albums.

My Son's Path :

My son is 15 years old, he really likes music. My three children all play multiple instruments and are in the school chorus, band, or orchestra. They listen to music all the time on their boom boxes and iPods. But they have no interest in audio or the equipment. Why?

If I look at what my three kids like to do for entertainment the top interests are the computer, the playstation, cell phones, and the iPods. When they get together with friends it is to use the computers or the Playstation, music is not a big part of the entertainment or of any significant interest beyond light listening. They own a few CD's but mostly they download music onto iTunes. The department stores where I first saw and heard a stereo system don't sell equipment anymore, the stereo stores I used to visit are all gone, and the independent music stores are also all gone or bought by the chains that only stock about 10 different popular titles. Even the mid fi magazines are essentially all gone.

The other thing facing young people today who might be interested in hi fi is the absolutely low quality of the recordings they hear through their earbuds. Most of these "artists" have very little musical talent in my opinion and some cannot even sing, recording engineers fix the out of tune vocal tracks. I had a young engineer visit me one night and we listened to my system with some of thier popular music and then some of my classic jazz recordings from the 1950's. They were stunned at the compressed sound and really AM radio recording quality of their CDs compared to my run of the mill Blue Note CDs. I did not even need to break out the demo CDs I play for my audio buddies.

What I see today :

I consider myself to be a stereo nut, everybody's definition is different so I might not qualify in the eyes of some on this forum. But I do qualify at work where the population is more representative of a fairly well paid professional workforce. Nobody at work is really interested in audio and equipment anymore. Even my interest in the equipment is starting to die. Again, why? Audio is becoming a nich hobby like owning a boat or a classic car.

The lack of affordable quality audio retailers and decent music stores are two of the main reasons. The lack of magazines that feature reasonably priced high performing products also contributes to the lack of interest in myself and the general public. Audio is killing itself with its product offerings, magazine selections, and distribution network. Audio is not competing against other electronic interests, people's money is going elsewhere.

When I look at Stereophile, I am immediately confronted with multi-thousand dollar preamps, receivers, and playback devices. A budget cable at $100. The only reasonably priced equipment is a few very small two way speaker at about $500, most people have no interest in something that is that plain looking and small. Pieces of equipment costing $5000, $10000, and even more are reviewed in glowing terms in the audio press and at the audio shows. Are these people on crack? The average person turns away.

Only seeing this high priced gear in the audio press is turning many off to audio, why would they compromise on what they now perceive as some piece of crap receiver for $500 when the audio press gushes over a $10000 preamp that you have to have to make the music sound like it should. Why waste the money on something affordable when it can't compare to that fancy preamp in Stereophile's list of recommended components. People feel like they are wasting money and don't realize that the performance differences are probably very subtle. It has become an elitist group of buyers and reviewers looking down their noses at the unwashed masses. The gap between the average home audio system a family can afford and the audio industry is growing rapidly. The average young person can spend $149 on an iPod and a few hundred dollars on accessories and have a state of the art system in their eyes. Why venture beyond that level?

I could afford to have one of those Stereophile recommended component systems if I wanted it. When I upgraded my amp and preamp a few years ago I looked hard at a highly rated high end set-up and eventually walked away from the local high end store that was showing me the equipment. I bought something more reasonable that I could justify the cost of to myself and whose sound was good enough for me and to my ears extremely close in sound quality to the really expensive high end preamp and amp. The selections fpr what I considered reasonable was amazingly limited! Oh, the high end store went under six months later.

Basically, the entry level and mid fi equipment seems to have disappeared. This is where the audio companies in the past sold to the masses and spawned the interest and obsession of the next generation of high end audio equipment buyers. The seeds are not being planted and the enjoyment of the hobby has been lost. Audio is competing with home theater, computer games, the Internet, and the multitude of video game systems. The only place young people are spending money on audio is on car audio, mostly big noise makers. Home audio is loosing quickly among the next generation of customers and even among the potential return customers when the kids leave the house. The audio industry needs to recalibrate and start offering high quality reasonably priced equipment that is accessible in retail outlets close to the customers.

I think people would return to audio if there is a selection of high quality receivers, preamps, amps, and Cd players in the $500 to $1000 dollar price range. They will spend more for speakers because the audible difference will be much larger as the price rises. Average people will spend $1000 to $2500 on a receiver, CD player, and speakers if the performance is really good, they can hear and touch the equipment, and they really enjoy music. Look how many people are buying Bose systems which are marketed to the masses, you may hate Bose but he is selling a lot of systems. Very few people will spend $5000 on one component and $100 on a cable or power cord. The high end audio industry is killing itself. Bose is winning with the masses. In the eyes of the masses, high end audio is no longer a mainstream hobby it is for the few and excentric. Good quality stereos for music playback is now a small nitch interest.

Just my opinion sitting here in Upstate New York,

Martin
 
Martin,

I realize this is going astray, and board mods won't take me to task too much, but in my recent tours of all the pawn shops in the vicinity of Ft. Hood, Texas, looking for the increasingly elusive(at least to me) Soundcraftsmen A5002, I talked to a lady at one shop, and she said something interesting. She'd been in the business for a long time, and said "Once we pulled the bulk of the troops out of Europe, we stopped getting so much of the audio stuff, probably trickling down in terms of serious audiophile gear by the mid-nineties."

I found that interesting, because any number of guys like me bought huge numbers of pretty decent gear at discount prices, mostly, in our post and base exchanges. Most of us eventually sold off some of it, or like so many, after arriving back in the states, virtually all of it.

But I suggested to the lady one thing, in addition to what she cited, that may have been a factor. You're looking at it. Right now.

I signed on with Prodigy for the first time in '92, and compuserve in '94, and "the real internet" in 1995.

Fits the timeframe, doesn't it? And oh, yeah, what was the first upgrade people rushed to shove into their store-bought $2000 386s? That's right: SOUNDBLASTER!!

Those young, single GIs who still go to Europe and Korea and all over the globe don't buy audio equipment much anymore, maybe some, but not like pre-1990. Most of them buy PCs and all the gadgets to go with them, and yeah, they do most of their music in digital format.

It's funny, as I was beginning the massive chore of re-assembling the beast of 2 decades gone by, I was bidding on an item on Ebay, a KLH TNE (transient noise eliminator-originally designed and manufactured by [Dick] Burwen Laboratories) and she asked me what it was for. I explained the basic principle on which it operated, and the use for which I expect to [again] use it, and she asked me a simple, poignant question(out of the mouth of a 17yo babe): "Why not just buy the CD?" I looked at her for a moment, and then I looked back as I checked the last-minute status of my bid(I won the auction), and all I could come up with is: "Well, I still have most of my old LP collection and I'd like to be able to listen to them again without buying them on CD, and besides, some of them probably aren't even available on CD."

She says: "Just download them... Duh..."

I suddenly felt very old with my TNE, my DNF, by Types 1 and 2 DBX boxes, my Dbx range expanders and my Sansui P-L95R. Old, and tired.

I had my moment a few days later, after the Amp arrived, and I got the steal on the Polk SDA-2Bs. I had purchased a CD, corny I know, but it was a favorite of the guy who introduced me to Soundcraftsmen amps, and I wanted to play it in his honor, I think a song that was representative in his mind of a sweetheart back home. "Your Song" by Elton John

Now the secret to this is, of course, that I knew that this CD had been originally recorded to tape, so there was likely to be tape noise in the quiet segments of the recording. So I queue it up, and played it, Burwen DNF OUT, and said to her: "Watcha think?" She says "EEEWWW..." "No darlin', not the song, particularly, but the sound of it." "It's nice, I guess." "Okay, close your eyes, and listen closely." So at this point, I put in the DNF and adjusted it from memory, until the two lights, one red and one green, essentially alternated. She said, eyes snapping open: "What did you do? It got better, less ssssssssssssssssssss in it." I explained it to her, and I said: "See, this is why all the stuff."

A little redemption, anyways...

So the point of my story, I suppose, is that it's easy for them. Too darned easy. They get on the ol' PC, any old PC will do, pretty much, and they download audacity and all the free filters and so on they can find, and they can do all the effects, and changes to sound that they want, without buying a single piece of hardware, although better speakers still help.

See what I mean? I think in the last 20 years, our population thinned quite a bit. R/C airplanes, as a hobby, is seeing sort of the same thing. They can fly on the simulator on their PC without investing nickel-the-first in a glow-fuel engine. They don't have to fool with any of that to get roughly the same experience, minus the stink of castor oil. And crashes cost nothing.

With fewer people to whom they can cater, the market is going to play that nasty, cruel cut: As something, anything, becomes more or less obsolete except to a few diehards unwilling to change, what happens to the price?

Oh, sure, for a time, it goes down, down, down, but for the still useful however long-ago eclipsed technologies, they get pricey. They completely depart the realm of something akin to necessity, or even mass-market desire, and become the province of the few. Those businesses predicated on catering to that crowd will have to do something different. It's a shrinking pie. To justify production, prices will have to go up.

And so, in high end audio, apparently, they have, and it has largely crowded out the mid-level stuff. My Soundcraftsmen amp, for instance. I now own a collection of gear, each piece of which has a single thing in common, aside from general vintage: Every piece was purchased used. (Except cabling)

The closest I have to something that looks totally mint, like it emerged from the box yesterday, is my tuner, also a soundcraftsmen. Note that a tuner is frequently the least-used part of any system. Most of us listen to recorded music most of the time. We don't listen to the radio unless we're in the car, and even there, we can toss in a CD or plug in the MP3 player or whatever.

And what became of Soundcraftsmen? Oh, they were bought out by MTX that mostly manufactures CAR stereo equipment.

See my point?

Yes, I looked at the link somebody else provided, and you do nice, really nice work. Yes, I'd love to audition some of them, out of the sheer joy of discovery. But we here seem to be a dwindling antiquity, don't we?

Of course, I'm that way with PCs too, except that I've stayed up to date out of the necessity of earning a living. The first one with which I plinked was a TRS-80 with 64k of RAM and an audio-cassette recorder as its only storage device. It was a huge thing when we upgraded to 5-1/4 floppies. That was around 1980.

I'd like to ask you this, however, and it's completely up to you, but I always thought it would be downright awesome to build my own speakers. Thing is, I can operate a soldering iron pretty well, and I can work my way around a circuit board, but designing circuits is something out of my league. I plinked with some radio shack kit stuff as a teen, apparently like so many here, but I have little memory of anything specific, or at least much less than I wish I had retained. So here's the thing: I know next to nil about crossover designs. I'm a pretty fair carpenter, and welder, and mechanic, and I have done all sorts of wiring. I build fairly sophisticated remote control airplanes.

I want to build some speakers. Not just any old box with drivers... I want to build something massive and awesome. Something smooth and warm. Something capable of power and finesse. Something on par with the SDA SRSs I once, however briefly, possessed.

Is that possible? Can a speaker be designed that sounds that good, or better, and be within range of the average DIY-guy? I don't know... I'm so out of touch with modern technology... You see what my points of reference happen to be.

BTW, while I now reside in Texas, I was born in Buffalo, NY, and my father's family hails from the Plattsburgh and Chazy vicinity up near Lake Champlain.

It's been nice chewing the fat with you. I hope you post more often, and lurk less. Looks like you have a great deal to teach, and I'm an eager student.

Thanks!

Mark
 
Martin, it's good to see more of the people from the "old days" of the Madisound and other similar forums, still posting. Now, if only we could get people like PEB and JohnK and a few others over here!

I think you'll find (and I would expect you've probably already noticed) this place free from the hassle and "riff-raff" (spam, flame-baiting, etc) that seems to populate many of the other forums in increasing amounts. Funny thing, is that here, people seem to actually LISTEN to people who can demonstrate that they know what they're doing! :D

So, it's good to have another great resource here! Thanks!

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I'd like to ask you this, however, and it's completely up to you, but I always thought it would be downright awesome to build my own speakers. Thing is, I can operate a soldering iron pretty well, and I can work my way around a circuit board, but designing circuits is something out of my league. I plinked with some radio shack kit stuff as a teen, apparently like so many here, but I have little memory of anything specific, or at least much less than I wish I had retained. So here's the thing: I know next to nil about crossover designs. I'm a pretty fair carpenter, and welder, and mechanic, and I have done all sorts of wiring. I build fairly sophisticated remote control airplanes.

I want to build some speakers. Not just any old box with drivers... I want to build something massive and awesome. Something smooth and warm. Something capable of power and finesse. Something on par with the SDA SRSs I once, however briefly, possessed.

Is that possible? Can a speaker be designed that sounds that good, or better, and be within range of the average DIY-guy? I don't know... I'm so out of touch with modern technology... You see what my points of reference happen to be.

Is it possible, YES!

You can buy most of the same drivers that are used in some of the really good high end speakers. You can buy the same make circuit parts for the crossovers. You can build and finish just as good of a cabinet. But the key question is who does the design work. If you have the skills and understand of how to do the design work that is great, if you don't I would recommend following a design that somebody else has done already.

I went to a DIY speaker get together a few years ago, there were probably 6 to 10 pairs of totally unique DIY speakers. People had sophisiticated software for doing the design and some were real wood working craftsmen (I was very envious of the construction and finish of several designs) who built beautiful furniture grade cabinets. Every one of thise speaker sounded very very good, there was not one that sounded off. Each had strengths and weaknesses but any one of them would be competitive in an audio dealer's showroom.

So I guess my answer is it can be done, you have to assess if you want to make the effort and if you are comfortable going down that road. Based on my own experiences, I would recommend starting simple and working your way up in design complexity. It is an investment in your time, energy, and skill. You will get out of it what you put in, DIY speakers are not so easy that a caveman can do it. But the end result can be very rewarding and a lot of fun.

Martin
 
Martin,

Thanks for the encouragement. I've got a lot of homework to do on the design of speakers, obviously, and last night, after posting, I was reading about some of your design experimentation. I found the wing-baffle design fascinating, if not altogether practical. One of the things I like are clean shapes and a smooth look. I'd always wondered, looking at the above-mentioned design, if building a speaker into a wall, as a design/architectural element would make sense if I had a room that I absolutely, positively had no intentions of changing. In order to do that, however, I'd have to do some prototyping that I could 'perfect'.

Anyway, that's something I've been giving some thought to lately, as the wife and I begin to think about what the house we will build is going to look like. We're in the embryonic planning stages, a ways to go on getting all the financials the way we want, first, but we've begun to toss it around. Thanks again!

Mark
 
Back
Top Bottom