MA8000 alternatives?

[3dit0r]

Oh indeed yes I do!!

I recommend at least get something you know you'll keep for a while, the problem here in NZ, and its probably the same with McInotsh in the UK, flipping them to build up to the one you want will cost a lot of money as every time you buy, you are generally importing them.
I imported a MC2120, MC2205, MC352 then just bit the bullet and bought the MC452 locally at a "sort of" dealer...
I also imported a MR80, MR78, C32, C40, C48, MEN220, and recently a C33, it all just cost so much money, I can assure you there will be no more additions to my Mc family after all that, I think about another pre-amp sometimes, but really the system I have is awesome...and the cost, nah, I'm done!!

Something to also consider when importing to the UK, you can get good deals out of the US, but you need to be aware that voltage conversions are not possible with all McIntosh products manufactured after 2012.
They now produce power transformers for the particular regions now, so all the US models are no longer Multi voltage.
So my C48 and MEN220 run 120V here in NZ, I have a step down transformer to run them. I have no issue with this as they are minimal current draw, but I can tell you, I would not be wanting to run a power amplifier off a step down transformer, and that would include something like a MA7000 and the likes....

Good hunting, and now you have the disease, there is no hope!!

Haha I know, I've had the disease for quite a while, just not the Mc strain - I'm not inoculated against that one yet!

That's really useful to know about the non-adaptable voltage on the newer units, I'll be careful of that. I wouldn't run a step down transformer or high power integrated for a power amp either.

 

[3dit0r]

See my signature ... I use both!

Just kidding!

 

[3dit0r]

If you don't need the advanced phono inputs of the MA 8000, then a MA 7000 might be a choice. Personnally I would look for separates. MC 352 and a C-46 or 48. Just a thought. Audio Classics has a MA 7000 that needs a home. I have no idea the hassels of bringing a pre-owned unit into Europe, or what you have to do to make it run on your electrical service.

Thanks, I'll check out separates you mention. See kevzep's post above on importing/electrical.

 

[3dit0r]

Just a thought, something which is important to me. When looking out for older Mac gear, is it all still serviceable, or are there some models which would be dead for good if something went wrong?

 

[kevzep]

Just a thought, something which is important to me. When looking out for older Mac gear, is it all still serviceable, or are there some models which would be dead for good if something went wrong?

Everything is serviceable, there is nothing I can think of in terms of pre-amps, tuners, and power-amps that would be a boat anchor if something went wrong.

You could go a generation earlier and not have to worry about being limited by not being able to do voltage conversions...

For example, you could buy a MC352 (which is one I had, should have kept it), and a C46, that would be a very nice combo and you'd be able to have them converted to 220V to boot.....I would think that would be similar money to buying a brand new integrated...

I bought my MC352 off Audio Classics online store, and they converted it to 230V for me....

 

[3dit0r]

Everything is serviceable, there is nothing I can think of in terms of pre-amps, tuners, and power-amps that would be a boat anchor if something went wrong.

You could go a generation earlier and not have to worry about being limited by not being able to do voltage conversions...

For example, you could buy a MC352 (which is one I had, should have kept it), and a C46, that would be a very nice combo and you'd be able to have them converted to 220V to boot.....I would think that would be similar money to buying a brand new integrated...

I bought my MC352 off Audio Classics online store, and they converted it to 230V for me....

Thanks, I've had a look and might well go down that route. Sorry for the delay replying, had a hectic few days!

Did you have a good experience with Audio Classics?

 

[3dit0r]

How good would an MC2255 be by today's standards? That and a 7270 have caught my eye...

 

[damacman]

Both the MC2255 and MC7270 are recognized today as classics.

The MC2255 is the last of the chrome chassis power amplifiers (at least for that era). It's an open chassis design with a somewhat unique system check countdown that was only offered on three other amplifiers (MC2250, MC2150, MC2155). Sound wise, they are quite revered. The one issue with the MC2255 is faceplates. This particular model almost always needs the glass replaced due to the method at which Mc affixed parts to the rear of the glass. Specifically, look for the lettering MC2255 STEREO POWER AMPLIFIER below the meters. In most cases, some of this has detached from the glass and the only cure is replacing the glass. The MC2255 has a full glass faceplate. The MC2255 also has meters with quite a bit of versatility, offering (4) different display methods. I've always preferred super bouncy VU meters to somewhat stagnant Wattmeters and the MC2255 allows both methods, depending on user preference. Finally, the MC2255 has a front panel headphone jack with a very high quality headphone preamp on board as well as a Speaker ON/OFF switch - perfect for late night listening. This is one Mc amp that I've not yet owned but it's still on my list.

The MC7270 represents IMHO the best value in a McIntosh SS amplifier. It's an open chassis design. It and the MC7200 were the first of the Digital Dynamic Stereo Power Amplifier family that was geared to faithfully reproduce the dynamics of the Compact Disc with difficult loads. This amplifier has a half glass faceplate to match preamps of the time that had rectangular shaped buttons on the lower half of the front panel. The MC7270 has newer style Wattmeters which don't have the action of the MC2255s meters with set to VU but some prefer that. The MC7270 also lacks the headphone features of the MC2255. The MC7270 is just sexier to my eyes. I've owned four. Regret selling even one of them, let alone all of them!

The MC7300 was the follow up act to the MC7270 and added substantially greater output current capability and back to a full glass faceplate. It is however in a closed chassis, where the MC2255 and MC7270 are both open chassis designs - more appealing to the eye. The MC7300 also adds speaker terminal blocks designed to accept up to 4 AWG bare cable. The speaker terminal strips on the MC2255 and MC7270 are a joke in comparison and commonly an area of complaint for owners.

Any of the three are very fine choices and represent SOTA for McIntosh at their time of introduction.

 

[3dit0r]

Thank you, that's a really informative post - I'm super impressed at the level of knowledge you guys have!

OK, so you really helped me narrow down the era I should be looking at. It sounds to me like I'm better going for a slightly later amp, which was designed for the digital era, given all my sources are digital and are quite high-end. Also I have speaker cable with either bananas or spades and it's quite thick, so I'd be better with a 7300 or beyond, I think. (Although, I must admit, I love the aesthetics of the older amps, very sexy). Can the speaker terminal blocks in the 7300 accept bananas or spades? I can't quite see how they work from pics?

Since reading the above, I actually looked at slightly newer amps, like MC252 and MC352. They're higher in budget used, but may be a better investment for me, I think. Am I right in assuming the McIntosh house 'sound' is fairly consistent from generation to generation. I'm still addicted to the memory of the MA8000 - so smooth, warm and big and no solid state edge or glare - massed violins sounded particularly warm and luscious, (I find it an instant turn-off when they sound thin or wiry/metallic). I take it all these slightly older amps will still sound good-to-great in that regard?

What was the cutoff point when you couldn't adapt the mains voltage any more? Is it just the current lineup, as Mc are so thin on the ground used in the UK, I think I'll end up having to import...

 

[joeinid]

+1, I pick up a lot of info from you guy and really appreciate it. Thank you for being so generous.

It's because of this forum that I am getting back to McIntosh.

Thank you, that's a really informative post - I'm super impressed at the level of knowledge you guys have!

Edit ...

 

[c_dk]

A point or two of clarification on Tony's post:

The whole digital dynamic verbiage came straight out of DOB's turntable clinic program and a attempt to jump on the CD digital bandwagon.

The dynamic range of a live recording seldom will exceed or even really approach 50 dB. There were plenty of high performance tape recording machines that could capture 50 dB of dynamic range but the tape hiss would be audible at the lowest levels. Many of the cues that music listeners used to set their volume were now missing when a CD was first played and McIntosh's PowerGuard circuits truely worked to limit the clipping distortion that would damage speakers.

Dealers were getting a lot less enthused about hosting DOB's amp clinics where he would give old Mc2105s and such their annual blessing. Dealers obviously wanted to sell new equipment, they needed to sell new equipment to stay open, and we all knew the new offerings were superior in so many ways than the old gear.

The concept that Dave came up with, pushing a amp into a digitally overdriven state and capturing the resulting distorted wave forms with a Poloroid camera was sound from a engineering stand point but a failure in the marketing department.

The amp clinic program was soon canceled.......PG designed in 1976 for the then new Mc2205 amp and MAC4100 receiver still lives in every Mac amp today. It is as relevant today with all the digital formats as it was back then when we could push the dynamic range limits with our favorite, still treasured direct to disc, LPs and High end cartridges.

 

[3dit0r]

Did Mac change the input sensitivity of their line stages in response to the increased output voltage of CD players?

I was pleased to note that their modern preamps at least have an input sensitivity of around 450mV unbalanced/900mVbalanced, which should prevent overload on many digital sources.

 

[damacman]

A point or two of clarification on Tony's post:

The whole digital dynamic verbiage came straight out of DOB's turntable clinic program and a attempt to jump on the CD digital bandwagon.

The dynamic range of a live recording seldom will exceed or even really approach 50 dB. There were plenty of high performance tape recording machines that could capture 50 dB of dynamic range but the tape hiss would be audible at the lowest levels. Many of the cues that music listeners used to set their volume were now missing when a CD was first played and McIntosh's PowerGuard circuits truely worked to limit the clipping distortion that would damage speakers.

Dealers were getting a lot less enthused about hosting DOB's amp clinics where he would give old Mc2105s and such their annual blessing. Dealers obviously wanted to sell new equipment, they needed to sell new equipment to stay open, and we all knew the new offerings were superior in so many ways than the old gear.

The concept that Dave came up with, pushing a amp into a digitally overdriven state and capturing the resulting distorted wave forms with a Poloroid camera was sound from a engineering stand point but a failure in the marketing department.

The amp clinic program was soon canceled.......PG designed in 1976 for the then new Mc2205 amp and MAC4100 receiver still lives in every Mac amp today. It is as relevant today with all the digital formats as it was back then when we could push the dynamic range limits with our favorite, still treasured direct to disc, LPs and High end cartridges.

Good stuff Chris. I have copies of the Spectral Fidelity test report that show performance graphs from the MC2255 and two competitive power amplifiers. The intent was to showcase the McIntosh Power Guard circuitry. It would seem that McIntosh was quite in tune with the times. Power Guard proved invaluable here, introduced nearly a decade before the Compact Disc would arrive. Was Gordon that perceptive?

 

[MACKIE1975]

Everyone calls LIMITER. McIntosh calls Power Guard

 

[MACKIE1975]

"Power Guard was a circuit patented by Sidney Corderman and Ron Evans. Patent number 4,048,573 was awarded on September 13, 1977 and titled Amplifier Improvements For Limiting Clipping."

 

[c_dk]

It is not a limiter....it is a attenuation circuit and while the details might escape you it's function is controlled by distortion artifacts not hard limits.

Gordon was tired of servicing mid dome warranty claims, PG and the XRT-20s both came out of that cost/benefit equation.

 

[MACKIE1975]

Limiter: "it senses when the amplifier channel is about to be overdriven and attenuates the overall level just enough to keep the signal from clipping."

 

[kevzep]

Did Mac change the input sensitivity of their line stages in response to the increased output voltage of CD players?

I was pleased to note that their modern preamps at least have an input sensitivity of around 450mV unbalanced/900mVbalanced, which should prevent overload on many digital sources.

If you want the "MA8000" type sound, I would be looking at a t least a MC252/352, and a C46......McIntosh "sound" is not the same throughout the range over the years...

You wont clip an input on a McIntosh pre-amp.

The year for the Multi-tap primary windings was 2012.

 

[damacman]

Thank you, that's a really informative post - I'm super impressed at the level of knowledge you guys have!

OK, so you really helped me narrow down the era I should be looking at. It sounds to me like I'm better going for a slightly later amp, which was designed for the digital era, given all my sources are digital and are quite high-end. Also I have speaker cable with either bananas or spades and it's quite thick, so I'd be better with a 7300 or beyond, I think. (Although, I must admit, I love the aesthetics of the older amps, very sexy). Can the speaker terminal blocks in the 7300 accept bananas or spades? I can't quite see how they work from pics?

Since reading the above, I actually looked at slightly newer amps, like MC252 and MC352. They're higher in budget used, but may be a better investment for me, I think. Am I right in assuming the McIntosh house 'sound' is fairly consistent from generation to generation. I'm still addicted to the memory of the MA8000 - so smooth, warm and big and no solid state edge or glare - massed violins sounded particularly warm and luscious, (I find it an instant turn-off when they sound thin or wiry/metallic). I take it all these slightly older amps will still sound good-to-great in that regard?

What was the cutoff point when you couldn't adapt the mains voltage any more? Is it just the current lineup, as Mc are so thin on the ground used in the UK, I think I'll end up having to import...

I typically look at S/N ratio when considering if I'll hear a difference between any two models of McIntosh power amplifiers. McIntosh has no sound really - it's house sound is one of neutrality. In my experience, it's easier to achieve synergy between the amplifier and loudspeaker with McIntosh power amplifiers than any others that I've owned. Combine neutral with synergy and wallah - you have McIntosh.

I've got an MC7300 as well and it sounds quite good driving my Altec studio monitors. The MC500 is the newest McIntosh amplifier that I own and as I've outlined before, there is definitely something there in the midrange and top end that gives it the edge to my MC2600s whereas I think the MC2600s have an edge in the lowest registers. An A/B/X test would undoubtedly prove that I have no idea of which I speak . . .

I never warmed up to the MC352. The MC252 was a purpose built unit with a shallow depth. Roger Russell uses an MC252 in his own system and other owners of it really enjoy it. I've never heard a bad thing of it. Hidden in the timeline is also the MC300. Again, never heard a bad thing of it.

Half the fun is the search!

 

[kevzep]

Limiter: "it senses when the amplifier channel is about to be overdriven and attenuates the overall level just enough to keep the signal from clipping."

It is a limiter, why are we arguing about this? The PG is completely and utterly a form of a limiter....its threashold is set and activated by an I/O comparator......can't see how that is not a limiter?