Manley Stingray - Getting the best out of it.

Bigerik

AK Subscriber
Subscriber
As some of you know, I have a Manley Stingray on it's way to me. This amp will be with me for many years to come, so I do want to make sure I get the best out of it. It will be mated to a pair of Reference 3A Dulcets, so that combo should be good. So what I would like to do is to do all the fine tuning I can to make it the best it can be. To that end, I am open to recommendations. Tubes? Cables and interconnects? Power cords? Anything else anyone can think of.

I'm open to almost anything!
 
All I can say is I'm jealous!! Only preamp I'd ever have other than my gas thoebe.

Evanna Manley is a genius.
 
This is going to be a fun thread. :D

We Erik, it's doubtful there's much about cables I know that you don't already know. But my basic recommendation would be to live with the Stingray for at least a few weeks before trying the cable upgrades, unless we're talking about experimenting with cables you already own. I have a feeling you might already take that approach anyway.

After that - :deal: - if you're interested in trying out new power cables I can tell you what I'd check out first in your position. I would probably start with the vaunted new-ish Shunyata Venom 3 we've heard all the raving about (and some of us, like Art K., have actually tried), or one of the lower-end Wireworld power cords. I base this off of reviews and the companies' specific design parameters, it's what I would hook up to that amp if I had it now, and were going to buy new power cables for it. If you're ever looking for something higher up the ladder, so to speak, I've never been less than impressed with my Cardas "Golden" pc, it's definitely the best I've used.

As for interconnects, again as you know there are SO many great options. Since I make my own now, I'll let others make specific recommendations here unless I can think of something I really want to point out.

For tubes I always go to the source of the best, but you have to be prepared to pay for it of course. When it comes to those eight (!) EL84 output tubes, you might want to stick to new-production brands at the moment. :)
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/

Still on the tubes - I'd do some internet research and perhaps also ask some of our tube gurus to determine which of those three types might net the biggest gains were you to change them out for something theoretically better (like NOS tubes, or boutique new-production tubes like the Shuguang "Treasure Series" tubes). My guess is that it would be the output tubes, but I'm certainly no tube gear expert by any means.

You might also consider some kind of tube dampers; I use dampers on almost all the tubes in my audio system. I've always used Herbie's, but I just got a new catalog from Mapleshade Audio with the following very intriguing tube dampers they now offer:
http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=TUBECROWN-1

The only thing I wonder about when I look at the Mapleshade dampers is whether there's any kind of protective coating/dielectric on the ribbon copper ground wire, to prevent oxidation, etc.. I guess considering what it does, that would be more of a potential cosmetic issue than a performance one.

Finally, aftermarket footers! Again I use Herbie's, but (also again) there are so many reputable options for that, and since we're talking about a tube amp, if it were me, I would certainly put footers high up on the list. I like Herbie's "Tenderfoot" footers for larger source components because they're so stable. I use his "Iso-Cups" under my phono preamp, but that's so small I don't have to worry about it possibly sliding around, or off of, the footers.

I also put Herbie's "Supersonic Stabilizer" bases under the footers for more extensive isolation, and even though that's not the specific application they're advertised for, I've found it very effective, and when I asked Steve Herbelin about it he said there's no reason not to use them that way, considering what they are:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/compfeet.htm

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/stable.htm

The possibilities are endless with this amp, you're going to have a blast with it I suspect.
 
Oh one other thing I thought of, although I'm not sure if you'd be game for this. Mapleshade Audio again - they offer a "contact enhancer" that consists of food-grade grease and microscopic silver platelets, intended for use on cable connectors, etc.. I now use it on just about every last tube pin I have, but you have to be a little careful when applying it so you don't accidentally short two pins together. Having done this on literally dozens of tubes and numerous components, I've never had that happen, but it's something to be aware of.

In any case, I recommend it:
http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SILCLEAR

EDIT: I also put this on the ends of fuses inside my components. Furthermore, I suggest you consider the fuse thing at some point, it really can help. I use Hi-Fi Tuning "Silver Star" but there are lots of others available now.
 
Sweet. Like you, I've heard the 'Ray in many different setups with a wide variety of speakers. You're gonna love it. Congrats!
 
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To populate that amp with NOS black plated Sylvies, Mullards, or Amprexs would be cost prohibitive. Better to track down some different varieties of 12AT7.

http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/12AT7.html

I'd try the triple mica bp RCA as well. :yes:

It's one amp that's on my not so short short list. :D

The front end isn't that bad. 12AT7's and 6414's are readily available for reasonable money. But 8 top quality EL84's are not gonna go for a song.
 
This is going to be a fun thread. :D

We Erik, it's doubtful there's much about cables I know that you don't already know. But my basic recommendation would be to live with the Stingray for at least a few weeks before trying the cable upgrades, unless we're talking about experimenting with cables you already own. I have a feeling you might already take that approach anyway.

After that - :deal: - if you're interested in trying out new power cables I can tell you what I'd check out first in your position. I would probably start with the vaunted new-ish Shunyata Venom 3 we've heard all the raving about (and some of us, like Art K., have actually tried), or one of the lower-end Wireworld power cords. I base this off of reviews and the companies' specific design parameters, it's what I would hook up to that amp if I had it now, and were going to buy new power cables for it. If you're ever looking for something higher up the ladder, so to speak, I've never been less than impressed with my Cardas "Golden" pc, it's definitely the best I've used.

As for interconnects, again as you know there are SO many great options. Since I make my own now, I'll let others make specific recommendations here unless I can think of something I really want to point out.

For tubes I always go to the source of the best, but you have to be prepared to pay for it of course. When it comes to those eight (!) EL84 output tubes, you might want to stick to new-production brands at the moment. :)
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/

Still on the tubes - I'd do some internet research and perhaps also ask some of our tube gurus to determine which of those three types might net the biggest gains were you to change them out for something theoretically better (like NOS tubes, or boutique new-production tubes like the Shuguang "Treasure Series" tubes). My guess is that it would be the output tubes, but I'm certainly no tube gear expert by any means.

You might also consider some kind of tube dampers; I use dampers on almost all the tubes in my audio system. I've always used Herbie's, but I just got a new catalog from Mapleshade Audio with the following very intriguing tube dampers they now offer:
http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=TUBECROWN-1

The only thing I wonder about when I look at the Mapleshade dampers is whether there's any kind of protective coating/dielectric on the ribbon copper ground wire, to prevent oxidation, etc.. I guess considering what it does, that would be more of a potential cosmetic issue than a performance one.

Finally, aftermarket footers! Again I use Herbie's, but (also again) there are so many reputable options for that, and since we're talking about a tube amp, if it were me, I would certainly put footers high up on the list. I like Herbie's "Tenderfoot" footers for larger source components because they're so stable. I use his "Iso-Cups" under my phono preamp, but that's so small I don't have to worry about it possibly sliding around, or off of, the footers.

I also put Herbie's "Supersonic Stabilizer" bases under the footers for more extensive isolation, and even though that's not the specific application they're advertised for, I've found it very effective, and when I asked Steve Herbelin about it he said there's no reason not to use them that way, considering what they are:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/compfeet.htm

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/stable.htm

The possibilities are endless with this amp, you're going to have a blast with it I suspect.


Great stuff, Dave. Exactly what I was hoping for.

I am going to start with a pair of Grover's from the DAC into the amp, and some home made speaker cables. Then I'm thrilled to say I have been lent a killer set of interconnects and speaker wires. Power cord is generic, as is the fuse for now. I've never really done much playing with power cords or fuses, but my gear will be locked in for the long term, so why not try that too!
 
Erik, I'm using Yamamoto ebony feet, PB-22 under my Almarro. I use them edge-up, though they can be used the other way. With my small room, and the rack so close, the shelves would sometimes vibrate in sympathy. This is just from airborne sound energy. The rack is mass-loaded, and the shelves are on their own points. I couldn't afford to re-shelve the rack with material that was acoustically more inert, so I put the amp on wedges. I have the cdp on PB-9 and PB-10 sets, ebony points and receptacles, for the same reason.

http://www2.117.ne.jp/~y-s/PB-22-e.html

http://www2.117.ne.jp/~y-s/base-2P-e.html

Some of my tubes have been more microphonic than others, so I have used the Pearl tube coolers, for damping the envelope, to good success. I got the first style, with the woven liner inside the copper foil. PartsConnexion, in Oakville, was clearing them out, before the redesign, and I only needed three, at about $5 each. Now they are a bit more, but still not bad. Herbies might be my next choice for that job.
 
The front end isn't that bad. 12AT7's and 6414's are readily available for reasonable money. But 8 top quality EL84's are not gonna go for a song.

I thought that is what I said :scratch2: :D

You might go for a couple nice matched quads of the ruskie 6P14P EVs from a reputable dealer though. Relatively affordable and a very nice as well as durable tube.

I do like my Eico HF-30s that run four EL84s. There is something very special about the EL84 no matter is it's run SEP, PP in pairs, or PP in quads. :yes:
 
Doesn't Manley talk down tube rolling? IIRC, when I was reading some of their stuff a few years back, they made a big deal about how they specially select the tubes for the amps.

Besides, I'd run it as is for a while to get a baseline for what you have before you start in on it, and give it a chance to grow on you.

FWIW, I had an AK loaner here a few years back and it was extremely sweet!! Congrats!!

Here's some FAQs from the always entertaining EveAnna...




FAQ #16a. I need to retube my Manley amplifier. Do you sell tubes?

Sorry. Just kidding. Yes, of course we do. We have about 100,000 tubes in stock of the several major types we use.

FAQ #16b. Why should I buy tubes from you?

We are only as good as our worst tube. We are very selective about which tubes we use in Manley products and we have several different testing and burn-in jigs to test for certain parameters which will be most important for that tube in a given circuit. We will test and select a tube set for you that will be optimized for your Manley piece of gear and in most cases, your tube set will actually be tested in another one of what you have.

FAQ #16c. Are tubes expensive?

Not especially. Although I might have made a killing in the stock market had I invested the money I instead put into finding and stocking these large quantities of tubes ten years ago when the USA military were dumping their stocks of NOS JAN vacuum tubes. Seriously, there is the stocking cost to consider in the cost we must charge, development charge of the computerized test jigs we built, then more importantly the time it takes one of our guys to run a little tube through its qualification procedures. Remember, a given tube cannot be improved during testing. It is the way it is, and one hopes it stays that way. It can only be selected, and in selecting that tube that will work really well for your piece of gear, we probably had to throw away several. In some cases we might have had to go through 30 tubes to find the quietest one, or the one with the lowest microphonics, or the one with the best internal matching, depending on what parameters are important for that circuit. That is all factored into the cost somewhat, but no, overall, we don't charge enough for replacement tubes.

FAQ #16d. NOS? JAN? What does that mean?

New Old Stock. Joint Army Navy. Yes our military used to use vacuum tubes. As long as the glass doesn't break, tubes are impervious to a nuclear explosion's electromagnetic pulse unlike little silicon devices whose little junctions would go poof! My general thoughts on NOS are I see people paying stupid money on eBay for Telefunken this or NOS that and it's all up to pure luck if that tube you pay $75 for will be a pull, used, half dead, work at all, noisy, a fake, or better performing than what we installed brand new in your unit. We do use a lot of NOS tubes here. We have loads of experience with the types/brands/lots we use and we have thousands more of them in stock. We chose each of these lots based not only on being able to get enough quantity to sustain production for many many years, but of course more importantly because we get a good yield out of them and these types/brands work exceptionally well in our circuits. Not all tubes are created equal. You can get a lot of a thousand pieces of 1960's Phillips 12AT7's that are absolute trash. Brand new Ei's from Yugoslavia will whoop 'em performance-wise and sonically. Or some mid-80's 6072A's that we already rejected here and sold off as salvage stock! That pair of (wow!) Telefunken's you bought on eBay for $150 might be cleaned up pulls. Or they might be re-painted Ei factory tubes.... you never know. If you are dealing with a known reputable source of NOS tubes, such as Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio, you'll be in good shape. I will endorse him as a high quality and trustworthy seller of NOS tubes. I will additionally endorse him as one of my very dearest friends. He has some very special rare tubes and he is a special rare person of the highest caliber and integrity in this industry. However, when you buy a replacement tube from Manley Labs, you are buying a new or New-Old-Stock tube that was *specifically* selected for optimum total performance in YOUR Manley piece o' gear. Each and every one. So weigh that out in your tube purchasing decision.

FAQ #16d (part deux). I didn't read anything you wrote above as I am not prone to reading anything or doing research on my own so I want you to advise me if the ECC3.14149 and the EL69-666 tubes I just bought on eBay will work in my Manley Toob-o-Rific?

I have no personal extensive experience with any other tubes other than what we keep in stock and use in our gear and since I haven't personally tested those tubes you hold in your hand I cannot advise you on them. You are on your own. If you have enough money to spend on unknown tubes then you have enough money to send the Toob-o-Rific in for repair if your new fancy toobs cause it to blow up. Or maybe they will work great. Probably the more money you spent on them, the better you will think they work. Good luck and if you need more personal affirmations, please read the answer to FAQ #4a again and again.

FAQ #16d (part trois) In Dick Olsher's seminal Stingray review, he recommends changing all the tubes. What do you think about using the so-and-so EL84's and the blah-blah-blah 12AT7's? What other 6414's can I buy?

That review was written a looooong time ago, specifically when there was a political embargo on for products of Yugoslav origin, such as the Ei 12AT7 and Ei EL84/6BQ5. Now there's not, but the factory is again in a funky state and we're our of stock once again on the Ei tubes. Rats. Next best are the Russian ones we are using. All the 6414 types we have ever run across are as good as the next type/brand. What really matters is that we selected ones that had good triode-to-triode matching for best performance as the phase splitter. Whatever you buy off the shelf somewhere will have not gone through that test. We ship the Stingray with:

Output Tubes: 8 x EL84 Ships with Russian EL84M (We are out of Ei 6BQ5.)
Driver Tubes: 2 x 6414 Ships with GE or RAYTHEON JAN NOS USA or 6414W
Input Tubes: 2 x 12AT7EH Ships with: 12AT7EH large plate Electro-Harmonix Russian
Those are the tubes that we can score large quantities of to sustain reliable and consistent production that we think sound best in the Stingray. Plus all the tubes we install are matched, batched and fully selected based on numerous and specific parameters specifically for best performance in your specific amplifier. Feel free to go spend bunches of more bucks on some other tubes, new, pulls, NOS, or otherwise (how do you know what you really are getting?) that were not matched batched and selected for your amplifier. Just don't ask us for personal affirmations regarding your decision. Keep reading everything in this FAQ#16 over and over. Have at it, but without our blessings or help. You iz on yer own! Because you guys obviously know more than we do about our own products, right?
 
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I missed this thread yesterday. Good stuff, Erik. Look forward to reading more about your experiences with Stingray...along with some pics :smoke:.
 
Doesn't Manley talk down tube rolling? IIRC, when I was reading some of their stuff a few years back, they made a big deal about how they specially select the tubes for the amps.

Besides, I'd run it as is for a while to get a baseline for what you have before you start in on it, and give it a chance to grow on you.

FWIW, I had an AK loaner here a few years back and it was extremely sweet!! Congrats!!

Here's some FAQs from the always entertaining EveAnna...




FAQ #16a. I need to retube my Manley amplifier. Do you sell tubes?

Sorry. Just kidding. Yes, of course we do. We have about 100,000 tubes in stock of the several major types we use.

FAQ #16b. Why should I buy tubes from you?

We are only as good as our worst tube. We are very selective about which tubes we use in Manley products and we have several different testing and burn-in jigs to test for certain parameters which will be most important for that tube in a given circuit. We will test and select a tube set for you that will be optimized for your Manley piece of gear and in most cases, your tube set will actually be tested in another one of what you have.

FAQ #16c. Are tubes expensive?

Not especially. Although I might have made a killing in the stock market had I invested the money I instead put into finding and stocking these large quantities of tubes ten years ago when the USA military were dumping their stocks of NOS JAN vacuum tubes. Seriously, there is the stocking cost to consider in the cost we must charge, development charge of the computerized test jigs we built, then more importantly the time it takes one of our guys to run a little tube through its qualification procedures. Remember, a given tube cannot be improved during testing. It is the way it is, and one hopes it stays that way. It can only be selected, and in selecting that tube that will work really well for your piece of gear, we probably had to throw away several. In some cases we might have had to go through 30 tubes to find the quietest one, or the one with the lowest microphonics, or the one with the best internal matching, depending on what parameters are important for that circuit. That is all factored into the cost somewhat, but no, overall, we don't charge enough for replacement tubes.

FAQ #16d. NOS? JAN? What does that mean?

New Old Stock. Joint Army Navy. Yes our military used to use vacuum tubes. As long as the glass doesn't break, tubes are impervious to a nuclear explosion's electromagnetic pulse unlike little silicon devices whose little junctions would go poof! My general thoughts on NOS are I see people paying stupid money on eBay for Telefunken this or NOS that and it's all up to pure luck if that tube you pay $75 for will be a pull, used, half dead, work at all, noisy, a fake, or better performing than what we installed brand new in your unit. We do use a lot of NOS tubes here. We have loads of experience with the types/brands/lots we use and we have thousands more of them in stock. We chose each of these lots based not only on being able to get enough quantity to sustain production for many many years, but of course more importantly because we get a good yield out of them and these types/brands work exceptionally well in our circuits. Not all tubes are created equal. You can get a lot of a thousand pieces of 1960's Phillips 12AT7's that are absolute trash. Brand new Ei's from Yugoslavia will whoop 'em performance-wise and sonically. Or some mid-80's 6072A's that we already rejected here and sold off as salvage stock! That pair of (wow!) Telefunken's you bought on eBay for $150 might be cleaned up pulls. Or they might be re-painted Ei factory tubes.... you never know. If you are dealing with a known reputable source of NOS tubes, such as Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio, you'll be in good shape. I will endorse him as a high quality and trustworthy seller of NOS tubes. I will additionally endorse him as one of my very dearest friends. He has some very special rare tubes and he is a special rare person of the highest caliber and integrity in this industry. However, when you buy a replacement tube from Manley Labs, you are buying a new or New-Old-Stock tube that was *specifically* selected for optimum total performance in YOUR Manley piece o' gear. Each and every one. So weigh that out in your tube purchasing decision.

FAQ #16d (part deux). I didn't read anything you wrote above as I am not prone to reading anything or doing research on my own so I want you to advise me if the ECC3.14149 and the EL69-666 tubes I just bought on eBay will work in my Manley Toob-o-Rific?

I have no personal extensive experience with any other tubes other than what we keep in stock and use in our gear and since I haven't personally tested those tubes you hold in your hand I cannot advise you on them. You are on your own. If you have enough money to spend on unknown tubes then you have enough money to send the Toob-o-Rific in for repair if your new fancy toobs cause it to blow up. Or maybe they will work great. Probably the more money you spent on them, the better you will think they work. Good luck and if you need more personal affirmations, please read the answer to FAQ #4a again and again.

FAQ #16d (part trois) In Dick Olsher's seminal Stingray review, he recommends changing all the tubes. What do you think about using the so-and-so EL84's and the blah-blah-blah 12AT7's? What other 6414's can I buy?

That review was written a looooong time ago, specifically when there was a political embargo on for products of Yugoslav origin, such as the Ei 12AT7 and Ei EL84/6BQ5. Now there's not, but the factory is again in a funky state and we're our of stock once again on the Ei tubes. Rats. Next best are the Russian ones we are using. All the 6414 types we have ever run across are as good as the next type/brand. What really matters is that we selected ones that had good triode-to-triode matching for best performance as the phase splitter. Whatever you buy off the shelf somewhere will have not gone through that test. We ship the Stingray with:

Output Tubes: 8 x EL84 Ships with Russian EL84M (We are out of Ei 6BQ5.)
Driver Tubes: 2 x 6414 Ships with GE or RAYTHEON JAN NOS USA or 6414W
Input Tubes: 2 x 12AT7EH Ships with: 12AT7EH large plate Electro-Harmonix Russian
Those are the tubes that we can score large quantities of to sustain reliable and consistent production that we think sound best in the Stingray. Plus all the tubes we install are matched, batched and fully selected based on numerous and specific parameters specifically for best performance in your specific amplifier. Feel free to go spend bunches of more bucks on some other tubes, new, pulls, NOS, or otherwise (how do you know what you really are getting?) that were not matched batched and selected for your amplifier. Just don't ask us for personal affirmations regarding your decision. Keep reading everything in this FAQ#16 over and over. Have at it, but without our blessings or help. You iz on yer own! Because you guys obviously know more than we do about our own products, right?

Very informative post.
 
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