Manufacturer slams industry

[MannyE]

Maybe not amps. The relationship between amplifier and speaker is at least in my experience, important enough that the amp in a system can affect the sound of the speaker negatively. So, you can have the situation where a good tube flea amp can outshine a great solid state amp and come to the wrong conclusion that the solid state amp isn't as good or vice-versa.

 

[just dave]

Well that is YOUR opinion but it is not true and like I said that article has a huge bias. It is basic utter nonsense.

But the point is when the YUGO came out is was 3500 USD and that was high price at the time. I think you need to rethink.

Sorry pal, 1986 Ford Escort $ 6327 1986 Chevy Chevette $5645 both are base models,next.

 

[MannyE]

Yeah but the Yugo's stereo sucked.



I have to read the article again to see if there is any bias in it. I don't remember any overt bias against or for any particular thing.

 

[Will S.]

My unbiased opinion is : you are correct. Anyone care to argue?

Yes. The answer is double blind testing. Like them or not, that's how you get an unbiased opinion.

 

[just dave]

Yeah but the Yugo's stereo sucked.



I have to read the article again to see if there is any bias in it. I don't remember any overt bias against or for any particular thing.

I think that was an option in the GTO model.

 

[HiFiThor]

Nice to hear from someone who was on the front lines of this industry and can also look inside the boxes and figure out where the magic smoke is hidden.

While I agree that it's very difficult to know exactly how any individual audio component will sound in each unique listening space, we should at least concede that, although there might be an exception, in general if a CD player or D/A converter sounds better than three or four other CD players or D/A converters in one space, it's likely to repeat that performance against the others in any other space. Ditto cables, sources preamps and amps.

Speakers and maybe power cords could be the exception because speakers are really dependent on so many external influences from amp choice to positioning to room treatment that they could be an entire different category. And power cords, well, without starting a debate (please don't... open a new thread) it really depends on what's coming into the house, which is a factor beyond the average homeowner's control.

My ideal real world review room would be set up like a typical living room with the ability to mimic the ideal room (with all the treatments) but quickly convert into a real world room with all the treatments able to be quickly removed.

Another thing it should have for reviews is a wall made out of speaker cloth so all the comparisons would be as free of bias as possible. The system is set up behind the cloth by a tech who does not weigh in on the review. So not a perfect double blind situation, but at least it's free of brand bias.

So far the only people I have heard that have strong objections to blind reviewing are reviewers, fanboys and some manufacturers. I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes any sense.

Double blind reviewing would be the answer for sure but it would never get past the ego, golden ear types. Can you even imagine someone picking a pair of Audiovox car speakers over a multi-thousand dollar home set (and I don't think Audiovox ever made a multi-thousand $ home speaker set)? The horror!

 

[MannyE]

OK so i re-read the article.
Has the situation changed in the ten years since the article was written?
I bet Cambridge Audio was happy with the article a decade ago. Did the person who was quoted later go on to work at Cambridge Audio?
Is there any review publication, paper or electronic producing real unbiased reviews?

 

[HiFiThor]

Com' on, lets get a spirited debate going on the impact of connection cables...

 

[MannyE]

Double blind reviewing would be the answer for sure but it would never get past the ego, golden ear types. Can you even imagine someone picking a pair of Audiovox car speakers over a multi-thousand dollar home set (and I don't think Audiovox ever made a multi-thousand $ home speaker set)? The horror!

I don't know anyone that does it. How cool would it be if a pair of Audiovox speakers beat a pair of TOTL 6-figure speakers??? To be fair, the Audiovox speakers would need to be put in a nice enclosure to qualify for WAF which would probably drive up the price.

I'm really getting a hankering to set up my HT space with a false wall made out of speaker felt on a frame, and see which of the 8 pairs of speakers I have I like the best with my HT amp. Then do the same thing with the Yamaha CR2020. I wonder who would win.

The more I think about it, the more I see how truly difficult it is to give each speaker a fair evaluation. First, each pair needs to be positioned to eliminate standing waves etc at the listening position, those positions have to be noted. Then the music needs to be curated and each pair should be tested with several different genres. And what are they to be? Jazz, Blues, Classical, Pop, Rock, Rap, Metal, Acoustic, Electric, which would you pick? Sound levels should be the same, so there's that, Lighting, temperature, the inactive speakers should be shorted, can they all be put on casters to be quickly moved around? Wow.

Sounds like A LOT of fun, actually.

 

[savatage1973]

I actually prefer to read the comment section from people who purchase items more than the section written by the manufactures describing their products. I do it more for entertainment then trying to learn much about a product because it is pretty difficult to weed out the truth from their ramblings but like here on AK it is pretty similar.

I agree with the "entertainment" factor. I take everything the manufacturers print with a grain of salt--after all--it is their job to sell their product--good or bad--this is what pays their bills. The buyer reviews fall into several categories--I spent $XXXK and it is XYZ brand so it has to be "awesome", and I own it and you can't afford it--I could put two 6" X 9" Jensen co-axial car speakers in a shoe box and not tell the difference (with regarding being any better than XYZ @ $XXXK), so my $50 system is fantastic--I got "ripped off" buying XYZ @ $XXXK and now have buyer's remorse and the wife hates me for re-financing the house, regardless of how impressive or unimpressive it is.

If I had the money to buy new high-end gear, I might use magazine reviews as a guide to what equipment could be worth auditioning, but I certainly wouldn't buy anything just on the strength of somebody else's opinion. If people are too lazy to do their own due diligence, they should anticipate getting ripped off fairly regularly.

NOTHING sounds the same in ANY different environment--NO ONE likes the same things--is it Miracle Whip or Real Mayonnaise?--is it Cool Whip or Redi Whip?--is it a Ford, Chevy or Dodge?--WHO CARES? Magazine reviews are what they are--reviews by people that are ultimately paid for by the manufactures in terms of "loaner equipment" or advertising dollars. I will concede that if the preponderance of reviews are stacked in either direction, they might have some merit, but it still doesn't mean that I will like or dislike a specific item--so YES--go listen for yourself.

What would an "unbiased" guide look like, though?

A blank piece of paper...

"Luxury" item sellers never want the masses to exam luxury items too closely.

"Luxury" items are typically not as thoroughly "vetted" as daily necessities. Someone making $50K per year is going to do some serious research and test-driving before they commit themselves to buying a Honda Civic for $25-30K and needing it to be reliable and last for 200K miles, much more so than the person making $50M per year and buying a $250-300K Bentley that will only see 4K miles (most of that by the hired driver taking it to be detailed weekly) before it is dumped for something new. If you have that kind of disposable income, it becomes more of an issue of "the name", regardless of quality, and those people basically don't care--if it breaks--fix it--or get me something different. A client of mine is into Range Rovers--he gets new one every 2 years like clockwork--bitches all the time about $5K for this and $10K for that, but the most recent one (this year) was $112K and he didn't bat an eye about it.

 

[biscuithead]

'nuff said - what this thread is doing now....

Circular Reasoning : The foundation of many a belief!
I get it now, Audio-ism is an ideology, a religion full of zealots. No wonder there is so many hands in the pot!

 

[Erik Tracy]

In before lock.

 

[sqlsavior]

When I briefly sold audio in the late 70's, our store had a price code on a sticker on each display item. The middle digits were the nominal retail price. The first and last digits combined would indicate the percentage of profit at that price, referred to as "points". Mainstream electronics were usually sold at near 40 points, but speakers and oddly enough, cartridges could vary considerably in the number of "points", or percentage of the sale that was profit. A cartridge that sold for $45 might cost us as little as $5 - the code would read 8459 - 89 points - 89% profit. Such items would often be discounted rather heavily so the buyer would feel like he was getting a good deal. ICs and cables are probably similar today. A boom-and-tizz off-brand speaker might be 80 percent profit for the store, and you didn't try to argue anyone out of them if they were impressed by the sound...

Few technologies age as well as sound has. Very few. Heck maybe it's early, maybe i'm biased in support of my argument ) but i can't think of any others...

I agree. The most salient information was in hand by the late thirties, and manufactured effectively by the late fifties.

Yes. The answer is double blind testing. Like them or not, that's how you get an unbiased opinion.

The opinions so gained likely ARE unbiased. Unfortunately, they are also likely uninformed.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

The opinions so gained likely ARE unbiased. Unfortunately, they are also likely uninformed.

What does that mean?

 

[ehoove]

Ok, time turn down the volume on some of these comments. It seems that the vintage crowd always has to justify their stance by disagreeing with everything not pro vintage. This is not about Vintage-Versus Modern, or Blind Testing, but about markups in gear. I cannot speak to modern, but when I sold in the late 60's and 70's the higher end Marantz, Yamaha, Harmon Kardon carried less markup than the Sansuis, Pioneers, and Kenwoods. The markup in speakers was all over the place once you got past the higher end speaker only manufacturer brands. So this nothing new, back then we had Stereo Discounters in the DC area where I could buy my first Thorens TD125MkII cheaper than I could at another smaller dealers cost. With today's internet any purchase by a uniformed buyer is at his own risk and not our problem to fix.
No one wants anyone to make a profit, then complains because there are no local shops in their area. They go hand in hand folks.

How can you complain about a manufacturer or dealer making a profit on a uniformed buyer, and then boast when buying a piece way undervalue from some unsuspecting soul at a thrift or yard sale and shout SCROE? Beats me.
Regards,
Jim

 

[jimbo2k]

As a former Audiovox employee, I take umbridge at your remarks. Nothing they ever made was Totl and I never owned a piece even though I could get it on salesman accommodation at a ridiculous price. They were however a great place to work. unfortunately, they closed their Ma. field office and retreated to Long Island. They offered us all jobs, but who could afford to live on Long Island.

 

[Bodyblue]

How can you complain about a manufacturer or dealer making a profit on a uniformed buyer, and then boast when buying a piece way undervalue from some unsuspecting soul at a thrift or yard sale and shout SCROE? Beats me.

I am not sure I read anywhere on this thread that people were complaining about making a profit really. The point was that on certain brands the markup does not seem to equal the quality contained. Getting a good deal at a yard sale or thrift is hardly the same situation.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

That was not the complaint that was made. ehoove nailed it on the head - totally agree with him.

The original post quoted an article that said, "... companies are selling inferior products for extortionate prices, and ... the magazine industry is supplying unhelpful and inaccurate reviews which allow the hi-fi manufacturers to get away with it."

That is the complaint that was made, isn't it?

Ehoove's point appears to have little to do with it, and Bodyblue's has everything to do with it.

 

[Ken Boyd]

As with all thinks in life, it is your job to inform yourselves, not mine, not the manufactures, and if you rely on some magazine as your only source, then buyer be ware.

 

[Tom Brennan]

As a former Audiovox employee, I take umbridge at your remarks.

When I see umbrage misspelled I'm left in high dudgeon.