Marantz 2230... I'm starting to believe the hype!

[onwardjames]

Returning to the "HYPE" issue for a moment...
You know... I get the reason for entry level receivers;
and they can be quite enjoyable when paired with the right efficient speakers, in a modest sized listening room.
No doubt.
Where I have a problem is the "HYPE".
IF, as in your stated parameters, and I QUOTE:
"I am all about 90% of the sound for 10% of the money",
you have been successful, there is admittedly room for improvement in that last 10% you've left on the table.
In that last 10%, you have lost a significant amount of what the musicians and the recording process have labored to capture.
I would suggest that you reserve the "Hype" for a best attempt at that last 10%, however impossible to fully achieve.
You can NOT win a Grand Prix in a Toyota Corolla;
however, Red Bull has managed it with a Lexus.
If you want to achieve audio nirvana, you can't start with a 2230... sorry.
If you're NOT looking for Audio nirvana, your "HYPE" is a broken promise.

Now I'm dining on humble pie.

I posted the previous edited post in the wrong thread.

Apologies all around. Sorry.

 

[PB_Audio]

There are people with $20,000 amps looking at $40,000 amps to get an extra 1%. Just like when I was in Spain the guys would pull in to dock with their 2 million dollar yachts get out and run over to see the 10 million dollar yachts. The last 10% cost waaaaay toooo much $$$$$$$$$. A larger Marantz receiver sounds no better then a small just more power, get it?

In your examples, the yachts would be equivalent to an Audio System capable of filling a huge auditorium. Noone expects to do that with a Marantz receiver. That job would likely require several Model 500 or 510 Amps.
The sonic merits of an Audio System are not dependant on the amp alone. Many would say that the speakers are the more important component responsible for the sonic signature of any Audio SYSTEM.
To expect a Marantz 2230 to to drive your system to volume levels other than for backround listening, AND expect cleanly produced Transients in the music program is asking too much for a 30 WATT/Ch receiver, even a Marantz.
THE TEST of an Audio SYSTEM is the clean articulation of the notes through the entire music spectrum, especially during the more difficult transients in the music... particularly during the loud passages in the song.
Only the most efficient speakers, when driven by a Model 2230, can hope to achieve this; and then, only at moderate volume levels.
If you're willing to severly limit your speaker selection, and/or only listen to music at moderate volumes, the 2230 may adequately serve your listening needs. Otherwise, at higher volume levels, you will not be accurately reproducing the more important passages in your favorite music.
The physics don't lie... it's just not possible.
So why all the "HYPE"?:thumbsdn:

 

[ChrisMarantz]

A larger Marantz receiver sounds no better then a small just more power, get it?

Pat, I would say that your audio POV is well tempered and while I enjoy the sound that a properly rebuilt Model 2230 (Model 1060 in my case) produces, it does not compare with the sound that is produced from a correctly rebuilt Model 1200.

Chris

 

[ConradH]

My speakers? Are simple single VC full range drivers.... The exact impedance curves not know by me... But they are known to roast amps.... 4 ohms.

Here's a pic of me resurrounding and adding new spriders.... Might give you an idea why a 2230 would not come close.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=404593&d=1358913673

Very cool- Ohm F? I first heard those in a Tech HiFi when they came out and was favorably impressed. 1974? Do they use any kind of crossover or eq? My patience is unlimited for electronic repairs, but messing about with refoaming or (heaven forbid) cones or voice coils would put me over the edge.

 

[patfont]

Well what I am really trying to say, and what this thread is all about is this:

I have owned, managed a high end store, have listened in my home to very very many pieces of gear and have heard many manufacturer set up systems while visiting.

The most musical gear I have owned was an Audio Research D76A owned by none other then John Dahlquist, which was retubed and had upgraded films put in for him as a favor at the factory, along with a worked over SP6B. This combo had an open window and calarity in the importiant midrange that was not only astounding but jaw dropping, at the time the rest of the system was a Sota vac table with a Souther Linear arm, MIT music hose speaker cable etc etc blah blah blah.

To me the 2215B and 2230 are so special when properly rebuilt it is actually well worth it finding a speaker that works well with either in your room. Does it approach the above system I had, in some areas yes it can sound scary good, detailed yet delicate with great immediacy. If like Jstang with Ohms a 2230 is not going to cut it. The hype is real the 2230 can stand tall against components well above it's monetary value. I know 2230 and 1060 are supposed to be/sound identical but they do not. Seperate amp boards etc the 2230 edges out the 1060, I have rebuilt both. Again my opinion my system my musical choices and listening levels.

Pat, I would say that your audio POV is well tempered and while I enjoy the sound that a properly rebuilt Model 2230 (Model 1060 in my case) produces, it does not compare with the sound that is produced from a correctly rebuilt Model 1200.

Chris

 

[jstang]

No crossover, no eq... One VC.

They are table flat from 30hz up to 17khz. But continue up 20k. Only speaker I know of that is capable of coming close to reproducing a square-wave....

But they need tons of damping and power...

I have heard stories of amps going up in smoke due to them.

A 2230 is not going to handle them....

Jk

 

[jstang]

Fostex....

Well what I am really trying to say, and what this thread is all about is this:

I have owned, managed a high end store, have listened in my home to very very many pieces of gear and have heard many manufacturer set up systems while visiting.

The most musical gear I have owned was an Audio Research D76A owned by none other then John Dahlquist, which was retubed and had upgraded films put in for him as a favor at the factory, along with a worked over SP6B. This combo had an open window and calarity in the importiant midrange that was not only astounding but jaw dropping, at the time the rest of the system was a Sota vac table with a Souther Linear arm, MIT music hose speaker cable etc etc blah blah blah.

To me the 2215B and 2230 are so special when properly rebuilt it is actually well worth it finding a speaker that works well with either in your room. Does it approach the above system I had, in some aqreas yes it can sound scary good, detailed yet delicate with great immediacy. If like Jstang with Ohms a 2230 is not going to cut it. The hype is real the 2230 can stand tall against components well above it's monetary value. I know 2230 and 1060 are supposed to be/sound identical but they do not. Seperate amp boards etc the 2230 edges out the 1060, I have rebuilt both. Again my opinion my system my musical choices and listening levels.

 

[Gridslayer]

Well what I am really trying to say, and what this thread is all about is this:

I have owned, managed a high end store, have listened in my home to very very many pieces of gear and have heard many manufacturer set up systems while visiting.

The most musical gear I have owned was an Audio Research D76A owned by none other then John Dahlquist, which was retubed and had upgraded films put in for him as a favor at the factory, along with a worked over SP6B. This combo had an open window and calarity in the importiant midrange that was not only astounding but jaw dropping, at the time the rest of the system was a Sota vac table with a Souther Linear arm, MIT music hose speaker cable etc etc blah blah blah.

To me the 2215B and 2230 are so special when properly rebuilt it is actually well worth it finding a speaker that works well with either in your room. Does it approach the above system I had, in some areas yes it can sound scary good, detailed yet delicate with great immediacy. If like Jstang with Ohms a 2230 is not going to cut it. The hype is real the 2230 can stand tall against components well above it's monetary value. I know 2230 and 1060 are supposed to be/sound identical but they do not. Seperate amp boards etc the 2230 edges out the 1060, I have rebuilt both. Again my opinion my system my musical choices and listening levels.

For sure... hard to believe the paths this thread has taken... I've been reading the whole thing. They might as well had started a new thread. I just wanted to make the statement that the 2230 is a great bang for the buck recevier

 

[jstang]

No electrolytic caps in the signal path of the d76a....

The most musical gear I have owned was an Audio Research D76A owned by none other then John Dahlquist, which was retubed and had upgraded films put in for him as a favor at the factory, along with a worked over SP6B. This combo had an open window and calarity in the importiant midrange that was not only astounding but jaw dropping, at the time the rest of the system was a Sota vac table with a Souther Linear arm, MIT music hose speaker cable etc etc blah blah blah.

 

[mech986]

No electrolytic caps in the signal path of the d76a....

Very true, however has a big honking output transformer which itself can introduce all kinds of non-linear anomalies, yet it sounds good.

But I've got a ARC D90 which seems to have a consensus of sounding pretty bad. So bad that within 2 years, they came out with the D90 Revised, and then the D90B which essentially was a whole new circuit with different output tubes as well. Then this particular line was discontinued after 5 years.

Unfortunately, I've never been able to listen to it as it had a big fire/fault before I got it.

 

[PB_Audio]

Just a thought...
some may want to 'take the road less traveled by...'
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=560772
:thmbsp:

 

[jstang]

But.... The transformer is inside the feedback loop on the ARC.... Unlike the coupling cap that's outside the feedback loop on 2230....

Jk

Very true, however has a big honking output transformer which itself can introduce all kinds of non-linear anomalies, yet it sounds good.

But I've got a ARC D90 which seems to have a consensus of sounding pretty bad. So bad that within 2 years, they came out with the D90 Revised, and then the D90B which essentially was a whole new circuit with different output tubes as well. Then this particular line was discontinued after 5 years.

Unfortunately, I've never been able to listen to it as it had a big fire/fault before I got it.

 

[ChrisMarantz]

Again my opinion my system my musical choices and listening levels.

My comments were not intended to uncut your observations and your opinion in regards to the 2230. You have a great ability to find and modify equipment in a way that suites your personal tastes and at the end of the day that's all that really matters.

 

[patfont]

Hi Chris, thanks, I did not take it that way. I am just affirming my love for "cap coupled" Marantz as being an excellent choice for people who's taste runs in that direction. I had rebuilt a Sansui 9090DB which sounds very very good in the mids and the little 2215B was doing some of the same things sonically, these 2 punch way above their weight class!

My comments were not intended to uncut your observations and your opinion in regards to the 2230. You have a great ability to find and modify equipment in a way that suites your personal tastes and at the end of the day that's all that really matters.

 

[rBuckner]

Hey Pat

As I posted on your 2215B thread, I recently acquired one and was a bit surprised at how pleasant it sounded even unrestored. Perhaps one or more of the ancient caps is at just the right stage of going bad! I also enjoy the 2230 sound.

One thing to also consider is that these low power units have less overall gain and usually a low amount of noise from the amps. On the completion recently of a 250 watt a channel receiver, I measured about -45dBv at the output! Of course it was about 80dB below the rated output so is actually performing correctly. Just a consideration.

 

[jstang]

Gain is not the same as power.... Yes.....

I have an amp with only 26db of gain....but 500 wpc.... And the speakers are only 87dbsp. This requires the volume to be set higher...which raises the signal higher over the system noise...should lower the S/N ratio.

I agree that that driving the preamp higher for less gain and lower efficiency speakers can drive the noise floor down.... Ridding the system of noise is a worth while effort.


Either way people seem to over look this. What I found is most noise comes from the source ( digital noise or analog hiss/pop ) or comes from the AC. The AC can be improved greatly with proper filters.

Of course the electronics can add noise. Better or few parts, better shielding or layout, .....

Just 2 cents...

Jk

One thing to also consider is that these low power units have less overall gain and usually a low amount of noise from the amps. On the completion recently of a 250 watt a channel receiver, I measured about -45dBv at the output! Of course it was about 80dB below the rated output so is actually performing correctly. Just a consideration.

 

[rBuckner]

Gain is not the same as power.... Yes.....

I have an amp with only 26db of gain....but 500 wpc.... And the speakers are only 87dbsp. This requires the volume to be set higher...which raises the signal higher over the system noise...should lower the S/N ratio.

I agree that that driving the preamp higher for less gain and lower efficiency speakers can drive the noise floor down.... Ridding the system of noise is a worth while effort.


Either way people seem to over look this. What I found is most noise comes from the source ( digital noise or analog hiss/pop ) or comes from the AC. The AC can be improved greatly with proper filters.

Of course the electronics can add noise. Better or few parts, better shielding or layout, .....

Just 2 cents...

Jk

Well, (voltage) gain to go from say an "AUX" type source of a nominal -10dBv to get to 500W which is +36dBv into 8 ohms no matter how you parcel it out between preamp and amp is still gain. But I get your point and agree with you, lower noise is always a good thing!

 

[Analoghack]

A confession is in order: In my quest for the best amplifier topology as evidenced by the opinions expressed by the many audiophiles posting in Audiokarma, I may have been a little hasty (jerky) in poopooing the Marantz 1060 and 2230 based on the fact that they both utilize an output DC blocking capacitor to couple the output transistors to the speakers (obviously, most of you guys really like these little guys).

From what I have been reading, many audiophiles think of vacuum tube amplifiers as being superior in sound quality to any solid-state topology (I, personally, don’t know if this is true). If I was critical of the non-linearity’s of a DC blocking capacitor, I could only be more critical of the inherent and far more numerous non-linearity’s in the audio output transformer.

I apologize to you who love the Marantz 1060 and 2230, I obviously have much to learn about what amplifier topology or amplifying device truly gives the best and most pleasurable sonic experience. Although I would hate to admit or concede to any belief that the quest for understanding what makes one audio amplifier topology sonically superior to another is un-knowable, I will say that maybe I should just relax and start enjoying the music.

 

[jstang]

It's the concept of running the preamp hotter... Most volume controls are on the input side of the preamp. By reducing the gain of the amp and forcing the preamp volume set higher...gain controls are after the preamp. You are improving the S/N ratio of the system.

And should hear lower distortion because of improved S/N.

The technical way of setting the amps gain controls, is to set them to zero, adjust volume on the preamp to half way...then adjust the gain to highest level you ever expect to listen to...

That will run the preamp hot and still give you some head room. While reducing the system's S/N ratio.

More 2 cents....

Jk

Well, (voltage) gain to go from say an "AUX" type source of a nominal -10dBv to get to 500W which is +36dBv into 8 ohms no matter how you parcel it out between preamp and amp is still gain. But I get your point and agree with you, lower noise is always a good thing!

 

[jstang]

Tube coupling OPT are in side the feedback loop.... Output Coupling Capacitor are outside the loop.... Good reason the OPTs are less of an distortion issue than output coupling caps.

The OPT linearity issue are being corrected by the feedback loop and the output coupling cap is not.....

I like tubes and SS.... Both have something for me....

Jk

A confession is in order: In my quest for the best amplifier topology as evidenced by the opinions expressed by the many audiophiles posting in Audiokarma, I may have been a little hasty (jerky) in poopooing the Marantz 1060 and 2230 based on the fact that they both utilize an output DC blocking capacitor to couple the output transistors to the speakers (obviously, most of you guys really like these little guys).

From what I have been reading, many audiophiles think of vacuum tube amplifiers as being superior in sound quality to any solid-state topology (I, personally, don’t know if this is true). If I was critical of the non-linearity’s of a DC blocking capacitor, I could only be more critical of the inherent and far more numerous non-linearity’s in the audio output transformer.

I apologize to you who love the Marantz 1060 and 2230, I obviously have much to learn about what amplifier topology or amplifying device truly gives the best and most pleasurable sonic experience. Although I would hate to admit or concede to any belief that the quest for understanding what makes one audio amplifier topology sonically superior to another is un-knowable, I will say that maybe I should just relax and start enjoying the music.