Jose Jimenez
Mc & Marantz Aficionado
Has anyone replaced the LM201 with an operational amplifier that sounded better? I am looking for suggestions.
Marantz Model 16 Operational Amplifiers
- Thread starter Jose Jimenez
- Start date
ChrisMarantz
Super Member
How are you defining "sounds better"?
Jose Jimenez
Mc & Marantz Aficionado
Of all the Marantz amplifiers I own the Model 16 at 80 Watts is the most disappointing in enjoyment followed by its big brother at 100 Watts. The Model 15s are really decent, especially the later version 3. They have a great bass and never seem strained with fairly decent high end. I could not believe my ears when after 40 years I hooked up my own Model 250, more bottom end down low, clarity and even better high end, no sandpaper here! Then a Model 30 came home and it knocked them all out. I have to try different combinations even with McIntosh amps and preamps to see where all this glorious sound and image was originating from finding that the amp and preamp rivaled the 3300 and 250, a McIntosh C34, 2105, 2205 and about right on with the old C28. I never thought that the Model 30 was that good.
So you have it. The 16's beyond the LM201's can be decent, just like a Model 15. I think the op-amps did them in with sound quality that was not up to the products before and definitely after. I purchased a number of different op-amps and will start tonight to see if they can have that quick leading edge sound the Model 30 or 250 has that make you step into the sound field.
I am almost tempted to make a small Class A amplifier on a board and wire it into the amplifier using the Model 32 as a start and guide.
So you have it. The 16's beyond the LM201's can be decent, just like a Model 15. I think the op-amps did them in with sound quality that was not up to the products before and definitely after. I purchased a number of different op-amps and will start tonight to see if they can have that quick leading edge sound the Model 30 or 250 has that make you step into the sound field.
I am almost tempted to make a small Class A amplifier on a board and wire it into the amplifier using the Model 32 as a start and guide.
ChrisMarantz
Super Member
I have not worked on a 80 watt model 16, so far I have only had 16B's.
I think that he early models 16's used a LH201 op amp and then it was changed during production to a LM201. According to the service bulletin this change took place around serial number 1456.
There was also a change for the filter caps which were originally 5000 uf the 6800 and finally 6900.
I use a rebuilt 16B for my daily shop amplifier and I have always liked how it sounds.
While I have never actually owned a 250, I do have several 1200's and I have always like how they sound and the power they make.
It will be interesting to see how your op amp project turns out
I think that he early models 16's used a LH201 op amp and then it was changed during production to a LM201. According to the service bulletin this change took place around serial number 1456.
There was also a change for the filter caps which were originally 5000 uf the 6800 and finally 6900.
I use a rebuilt 16B for my daily shop amplifier and I have always liked how it sounds.
While I have never actually owned a 250, I do have several 1200's and I have always like how they sound and the power they make.
It will be interesting to see how your op amp project turns out
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I'm guessing, when you say "a Model 30 came home", you are talking about a pair of McIntosh MC-30 mono-block tube power amps that were just refurbished, including especially new caps... is that correct? (I have never heard of a Marantz Model 30.)
You know, you're going to have to similarly refurb your Marantz Models 250 and 3300 to make a true comparison. Let's face it, they are over due, and deserve an upgrade to modern Audio Grade caps. You will be surpriced at the difference it will make.
Among the MAC tube amps, I personally prefer the Model 30 and 240, even over the tube flagship Model MC-275. While I love the added power of the MC-275, it comes at a price, a la that upper-midrange to highend edginess... less apparent in the MC-30s or MC-240.
If tubes are your preference, you will love the Marantz Model 8B. Among the best of the 60s tube designs, the Marantz 8B is the sonic champ, followed by a pair of Model 9s. If you want to stick with the MAC MC-30s, consider either the 20 or 22 tube preamps.
Regarding MAC solid state amps, I was never moved by the popular MC-2100/2105, same with the C-28 preamp.
On the other hand, I use either a Marantz 510M or McIntosh 2205 Power Amp as back up for my main Marantz Model 500 Power Amp.
The MAC MC-2205/2255 are wonderfully transparent and detailed with very good articulation. Nearly as good as my aggressively restored Marantz 510M, but clearly no match for the Marantz 500. I would pair the MC-2205 with a C-29, for example.
Regarding the 15 vs 16 vs 16B. For the reason you describing, the Model 16 was rather quickly upgraded to the 16B, IIRC. Revising your Model 16 to the 16B specs may just be the ticket.
A refurb with Audio Grade caps will assist in taming the Model 16's ill manors. I could say the same with virtually all the early Marantz solid state amps and preamps. Technology marches on, and electrolytic caps dry out over time.
Apply equal portions of a skilled and motivated tech AND BEST QUALITY parts for BEST sonic results.:yes:
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Jose Jimenez
Mc & Marantz Aficionado
No lab tonight, I needed to cut the lawn while I had a chance. My son is at college and I have to do all of it myself till it stops growing.
No it is not a Mc 30 but a Maranz integrated Model 30 that I am really enjoying this minute. I purchased one for my friend almost 30 years ago and it let go some years back in one channel. The transistor for the bias circuit let go and took out the 100 Ohm resistors for the drivers and the finals were in sad shape. I pulled all the devices and found nothing else wrong with the semis, even leakage.
After getting this one going I said to myself I need to get one of these buggers.
No it is not a Mc 30 but a Maranz integrated Model 30 that I am really enjoying this minute. I purchased one for my friend almost 30 years ago and it let go some years back in one channel. The transistor for the bias circuit let go and took out the 100 Ohm resistors for the drivers and the finals were in sad shape. I pulled all the devices and found nothing else wrong with the semis, even leakage.
After getting this one going I said to myself I need to get one of these buggers.
... a baby integrated, that explains it... My bad!
I'm a tuner fan, never sold an integrated.:scratch2:
When you mentioned the MC-2205, my fav BIG MAC, I figured you had to be talking MC-30s.
You got me with an integrated amp. But, hey, everybody seems to love the Marantz 2230 and Model 1060... must be similar to your Model 30.
Just my opinion... do yourself a favor, restore your Model 250 Power Amp. There's an amp that will really shine with the proper attention.:thmbsp:
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ChrisMarantz
Super Member
The Model 30 is a really nice integrated and they are very reliable. The last few I have worked on only need basic repairs, mainly the relay / rectifier boards need to be rebuilt.
I think everyone I have seen has had the bias transistors and diode misaligned and not even touching the heat sink.
Jose Jimenez
Mc & Marantz Aficionado
I just finish one channel of the 80 Watt 16 with the installation of a LM301H op-amp. Other than that it is of higher sensitivity than the Model 30's amplifier, I initially thought it was the other way around when hooking it up. I didn't really want to know which channel was which at first. Wow, maybe I can enjoy the amp when I am finished. I need to give it a listen now. I did not need to adjust the dc offset which is a good start.
A photo of your boards, both the original and the new completed board would have been very interesting, both before and after installation.
I have 2 Model 19 receivers, a model I'm quite fond of. Any Mods you successfully complete to your Model 16 may be relavent to my Model 19.:yes:
Jose Jimenez
Mc & Marantz Aficionado
All I did was change a 42 year old op-amp out with a newly manufactured one and I can say for such little effort is was well wort it. Much cleaner highs and the amplifier seems to bet the beginning of all the music right. It has that bite like other Marantz amplifiers have like the 250.
I do not belive the amplifier in you 19's have op-amps because I was interested in the design as compared to the Model 15. In facT I purchase a Model 15 to mess around with and my son is using it now in college. I took out the limiting resistors and model the driver and finals on the 19 circuit. I was thinking at the time less is better and it does just fine for him driving some Scan Speak 8's amd tweeters in Nice JBL cabinets with added bracing inside and new porting. The crossover networks are simple also.
I do not belive the amplifier in you 19's have op-amps because I was interested in the design as compared to the Model 15. In facT I purchase a Model 15 to mess around with and my son is using it now in college. I took out the limiting resistors and model the driver and finals on the 19 circuit. I was thinking at the time less is better and it does just fine for him driving some Scan Speak 8's amd tweeters in Nice JBL cabinets with added bracing inside and new porting. The crossover networks are simple also.
See... you make it sound so simple; but, to us novice and wanna-be techs, this is great stuff.
It's no good here if you don't explain what you're doing, including the WHY, WHERE, and WHAT parts are being substituted.
Then, of course, we want to hear about the final results, complete with photos.
... then if you could just publish a service bulletin...
