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Mating a Fisher 440 Amp to a 490-T Tuner

Discussion in 'Fisher' started by audmod01, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Put a note with it that for an elliptical stylus, check with www.KABUSA.com He knows all the variants on these as to whats compatible stylus wise.
     

     

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  2. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

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    Larry;

    Thanks, I will do!

    As a follow-up the unit was moved to her bedroom and in the process the switch that takes care of the AC power for the OEM Garrard changer that came with it got turned to the off position and they could not get it to turn on. Switching it to Normal position cured that. A second problem developed with the changer. I think that in moving it the turntable managed to rotate counter-clockwise and got it into a position in the change cycle that it became jammed. When they tried to start the unit again the motor could not drive the rim of the turntable and chewed a notch in the rubber drive wheel rim so I am going to have to order a new one. I got it out of the change cycle by rotating the turntable by hand clockwise and it finished cycle in normal mode. I will get the drive wheel on order tomorrow. I plan to advise her to in the future secure the turntable with two pieces of masking tape so it cannot rotate while being carried. That should prevent such a problem again.

    The unit is delivering excellent sound and does credit to Avery Fisher and his company. It really has outstanding sound for any genre of music. We listened to some Johnny Mathis music for a test.

    Joe
     
  3. gadget73

    gadget73 junk junkie Subscriber

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    some changers will break stuff if run backwards. Others just jam. You may be able to run the idler wheel against a nail file or something to re-true it. I've had mixed results with it. I usually use the lathe just because it gives me better results but trying to machine soft rubber is kind of like trying to nail spaghetti to a wall.
     
  4. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    I just toss it against the wall above the stove. If it stick's it's NOT DONE! :( If it drops off It's Done.:jump:
     
  5. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    LOL! Sometimes you have to laugh at what has happened - like dropping a key and looking for hours and finally finding it in your pants cuff.

    I will be visiting thevoiceofmusic.com and ordering a new/rebuilt drive wheel. Since the old one is actually still working, I will pay extra not to have to send the old one in with the order and send it later. I have hand only limited success filing or sanding the edge of drive wheels in the past. Once I even used a square profile O-ring to replace the rubber on one wheel that had a groove the rubber fit into. It sort of worked, but was too large in OD and I had to still grind that down. The old 78rpm changer still had other problems and stayed in constant change cycle. It was replaced by a nice Garrard A-70 changer that I knew how to work on with success.

    Joe
     
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  6. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Tioga, TX
    The 440 power supply/audio output chassis developed a problem recently. My granddaughter let me know that it would not make any sound. I checked and found two problems. The 6.3VAC filament winding of the power transformer for the radio tuner chassis is open. The 6.3VAC filament winding for the tubes on the 440 chassis is still operating. Also her record changer motor appears open. None of the filaments of the tubes in the radio tuner chassis light up except the 12AX7 preamp tubes (which are fed by DC from the audio output tubes cathode circuit).

    The fact that the filament winding of the power transformer is open plus the motor in the changer makes me suspect that it may have been struck by lightning. My first task is to remove the power transformer so I can get the bells off the ends and look for an open connection right where the filament winding comes out of the transformer core. These are a heavy white and heavy blue wire that in turn go to the chassis socket where the plug from the 490-T tuner is connected. I first feared that one of the dial lamp sockets had shorted and burned open the filament winding of the transformer, but I see no overheated filament wires anywhere. Whatever happened occurred so quickly that the insulation did not even have time to burn or overheat. Likewise the changer has no external indications of anything being burned. Of course the on-off switch of the changer could be open, but I have not checked that yet.

    Things happen heading West.

    Joe
     

     

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  7. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    For a heater winding to open (!!!), and a fairly high current winding at that, and the primary winding to NOT be open (!!!), and the changer motor to be open as well(!!), a lightning strike is about the ONLY thing that could do that kind of damage....... If necessary, a separate filament transformer for the tuner/pre chassis as a fix? The changer will likely require a new motor.

    Good luck with it --

    Dave
     
  8. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Tioga, TX
    Dave;

    Yes, that was my evaluation of the situation too. I am going to dig into the power transformer today to see if I might be able to reattach end(s) of that filament winding. I am not too hopeful. I will need to add up all the tube filament currents plus the dial lamps and find a filament transformer that will supply that much current and more for a generous margin.

    We did have a lightning strike near here a few weeks ago. I suspect that was the event that brought this about.

    Joe
     
  9. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Joe: If needed I've got a spare 490T with a 481A amp out of a 64 Custom Electra if needed. You'll need to go thru them (factory stock) but they do work.
    Larry
     
  10. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Tioga, TX
    Larry;

    Thank you so much! For now, I may have solved the problem. I managed to get the end bells off and un-soldered the copper strap, carefully cut away a layer of paper insulation after removing the extra fish-paper covering enough to expose the white and blue wires plus the yellow and green wires. The end of one of the blue and white wires appeared to have had the solder blown apart and some slight blackening of the insulation underneath it. I was able to re-solder and restore continuity in that winding. One of the most difficult efforts was un-soldering and then re-soldering the copper strap! :rant: I had to use two soldering guns at the same time when re-soldering that. My largest 240W soldering gun was enough to get it apart, but both guns were required to re-solder it. I also had to use some rosin solder flux.

    I went back and made a minor change to one photograph of the underside which shows the wires coming from the power transformer to several connection points so I could be sure to get every wire back to the correct place. I hope this works! If not I may have to take advantage of your offer. I plan to run the unit for a good number of hours after reassembly to make sure it does not open up again. This was a strange case, but, I have seen lightning do even more strange things in the past.

    Another rant item - when the transformer was assembled at the transformer manufacturer's location they managed to bend the ends of the long bolts that pass through the transformer leaves right at the spot where the nuts were secured. This made unfastening the bolts and nuts excessively difficult. Now that it is time to reassemble, I cannot get the nuts to go back on the ends of the long bolts. It looks like I will have to go back to Ace Hardware and get some more long bolts (if I can even find any long enough)! I do have some I have saved over the years that are in containers in the barn. I think I will check there first. It appears that after the nuts and bolts were tightened they took something and deliberately bent the ends of 3 out of 4 bolts.:rant: Only one bolt will accept its nut again.

    Next I need to check the motor of the changer to see if it is repairable.

    Joe
     
  11. fred soop

    fred soop Super Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    You should be able to remove and replace the copper band with a pin punch and small hammer without the need for soldering. For replacement screws, look at Albany Hardware, or mabe it is Albany Screws on eBay. Good stainless hardware at reasonable prices.
     

     

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  12. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

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    Radio and normal audio functions are restored. I was fortunate that re-soldering the filament leads inside the power transformer restored 6.3VAC to all the radio tuner chassis filaments. I also added some cardboard reinforcement to the AM loop antenna mount. It had been bent so badly that it was in danger of being broken off.

    Now to retrieve the record changer and take a more detailed look at it. It is possible that the motor may be OK but the on-off switch may have been damaged or destroyed.

    Joe
     
  13. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    Super job Joe! No damage is more weird than that caused by lightning. How strange it was a 6.3 volt winding, and not the primary winding -- so glad you were able to save the transformer!

    Dave
     
  14. larryderouin

    larryderouin Turn it UP, POP? PLLUUEEEZZZZZEE Subscriber

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    Joe; I've also got a couple AT-6 chassis' here too. Yell if you need one.
     
  15. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

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    1,219
    Location:
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    Took a look at the Elac Miracord 40H changer yesterday. It sustained damage to the motor windings. I tried to access them to look for a burned apart wire, but no dice. The way the motor assembly is put together it makes it very difficult without special tools to disassemble down to the level which would be required to look for burned apart wires. I did some looking and found a Elac 50H changer at a decent price and ordered that. I hope to have it soon and do some lubrication maintenance on it to get it working well again. The 50H has a better multi-pole motor that has less hum and vibration than the motor in the 40H unit. Most of the rest of the mechanical parts underneath are very similar if not identical.

    The radio tuner chassis and audio-amp/power supply continue to work like they should. I plan to take that part back to my granddaugher this afternoon and reinstall in the cabinet so she can at least enjoy the radio portion while waiting or a replacement changer.

    Where there is a will there is a way!

    Joe
     
  16. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Tioga, TX
    Today I received the ELAC Benjamin-Miracord 50 H that I ordered from eBay. It arrived with the turntable swimming in oil. I knew right away that the person who sold it had no idea how to service a record changer. I unpacked it in the back of my pickup. I brought out some cigarette lighter fluid and some paper towels and proceeded to clean and mop up all the oil that I could. Once I had it reasonably oil free, I took it inside (no need to upset she who must be obeyed!).

    I finished cleaning the oil after removing the turntable and examined the parts underneath it. The motor ran OK when the switch was turned on and so no problem there. I cleaned some of the very small levers visible with Q-tips and some more lighter fluid. Then I applied some 3-In-1 oil a few places and fresh Lithium grease in a couple of spots. I removed the idler wheel and used a Scotch-Brite pad to roughen the rim of the rubber then put it back on with a drop of 3-In-1 oil. I put the turntable back on and tried it with a 33rpm LP record and it works flawlessly now. The change cycle works like it should.

    The unit came with both the manual and the automatic spindles. It has a viscous damped tone arm lift-descend arrangement plus anti-skate adjustment as well as adjustable stylus tracking pressure control. The motor is a multi-pole hysteresis-synchronous motor, so the speed is quite steady. The motor reminds me very much of the one in my Tandberg Model 64 tape deck. I plan to get a strobe disc to check the speed, but just listening to it, it appears to be very good. The cartridge with it is a Pickering V15/AT-3 model. The stylus appears to be original, so it may need a new stylus just to be safe. After working on a couple of these ELAC changers, I find them easier to work on than the Garrards I have used for so many years.

    The price was about $150 including shipping. I managed to caution the seller about how to package it so that it would arrive in good shape. There is a wooden base with it too and I have one of the OEM ELAC smoke tinted plastic covers I can put over it. That cover came with the ELAC 40 H that is now in my granddaughter's stereo. I was able to repair the 40 H after all by replacing a wire and terminal at the junction box underneath it. However I am waiting on a rebuilt idler wheel for her changer from Gary Stork at thevoiceofmusic.com.

    If I like this ELAC changer well enough, it may replace my Garrard AT-70 changer which I have used for over 40 years.

    Joe
     
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  17. gadget73

    gadget73 junk junkie Subscriber

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    The A70 is a nice machine, probably has the potential to be the finest 78 changer around with that side pusher. I like side pushers for 78 in general, but the A70 has the best arm of the lot of them.
     
  18. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
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    What do you think of the Pickering V15 cartridge?

    Joe
     
  19. fred soop

    fred soop Super Member

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    1,975
    When I was a kid, I over oiled a Marx train and the motor eventually overheated and burned out as a result. If you suspect there may be any oil on the motor windings, I'd hit it with compressed air and rags to make sure that as much of it as possible is removed.
     
  20. audmod01

    audmod01 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Tioga, TX
    The person who put all the oil on the changer only put it on top of the turntable platter. Some of it soaked under the rubber mat and that portion keeps seeping out from under the rubber. I keep mopping it up as it reappears. Fortunately no oil at all was placed under it on parts or the motor. Apparently the person did not understand how to remove the turntable. The metal ring that holds it on the bearing and spindle assembly was still in place and did not appear to have ever been removed.

    The rubber mat on this ELAC is glued on. The one on my granddaugter's changer is not. I don't know if it was the practice of the factory to glue the rubber mat on or not. Do any of you know?

    Joe
     

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