MC2000 vs. Dual MC275s

Most people look at clipping and distortion as harmful to equipment namely the speakers, and that's all. Clipping starts happening far sooner than you might realize, in fact it's so gradual until it's really bad you don't noteist it. With tube amps they can be pretty low power and clipping comes on sooner than a high power amp. They also soft clip, so half the time your listening the music it's being clipped at higher transient peaks, you might not realize your not getting all the music but your brian might be wondering that something is amiss.

I look at stopping clipping and distortion as Sound Quality I will get every detail and peak in the music at mostly all volume levels but the extreme. While some peaks,detail and decay go out of hearing range it's still there and gradually fleeting.
 
Unfortunately, speakers are not damaged from clipping. Rather, they're damaged from the heat caused by excessive power - be it clipped or clean. Power vs time is the killer.
 
Just curious -- what components are you using currently and what kind of music do you listen to?

I didn't completely read and respond to this last night.
When I had the 9s, I was using an mc352.
I didn't feel MC60s were a good pairing with them.
The 60s I use as daily drivers with a C22CE
 
4-2-7, that's a lot of great information! Thanks for taking the time to post it. I'll go back over it again and absorb as much as I can and then I'm sure I'll have some comments and/or questions. Excellent points.

Rather, they're damaged from the heat caused by excessive power - be it clipped or clean. Power vs time is the killer.

damacman, I presume that you're talking about voice coils being damaged from heat. If I recall correctly, I think that my XRT1Ks have a voice coil monitoring system that guards against excess heat. I didn't take the time to double check that in the manual, but that sounds like a good thing, if I'm correct. I'm sure that other speaker makers use that safeguard too.

The 60s I use as daily drivers with a C22CE

I drive my MC2000 with a C22CE, the "Frank H. McIntosh" model. Classic looks and great performance.

Dave
 
It is also important to remember two speakers used for stereo which is a 3 dB increase over a single which is how sensitivity is measured, thus 1 watt per channel with a pair of speakers of 87 dB sensitivity each ultimately results in 90 dB SPL. Not 87.
 
Unfortunately, speakers are not damaged from clipping. Rather, they're damaged from the heat caused by excessive power - be it clipped or clean. Power vs time is the killer.
Having the power for head room is quite different than playing you system at very high level to distortion and watching PG flashing away.

I presume that you're talking about voice coils being damaged from heat.
Yes

But mostly all newer mac amps have power guard and lights to indicate it activated.
 
FWIW- I've been running a pair of 90 dB acoustic suspension speakers with a McIntosh MC2505, MC240, pair or MC30. All are capable of rattling pictures off the wall, cleanly and without overdriving the amplifiers in a room 16' x 25' at a listening distance of roughly 13' to 14' from the speakers.

Even once had the police called to the house and the closest neighbor is a good 75' away. I was using the MC240 on that occasion.
 
FWIW- I've been running a pair of 90 dB acoustic suspension speakers with a McIntosh MC2505, MC240, pair or MC30. All are capable of rattling pictures off the wall, cleanly and without overdriving the amplifiers in a room 16' x 25' at a listening distance of roughly 13' to 14' from the speakers.

Even once had the police called to the house and the closest neighbor is a good 75' away. I was using the MC240 on that occasion.
Playing a system loud has nothing to do with the SQ being effected from clipping.

Use the calculator I posted, you listen at low volumes caddy so if you put in 75SPL @ 4 metters and 15db for head room your all good.

Lots of music has transient peak swings to 20db though and most people don't think 85db @ 4 meters is loud at all. Here is where you will be clipping the wave forms with low watt amps starting to come on at low volume levels and Sound Quality starts to diminish. .
 
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Playing a system loud has nothing to do with the SQ being effected from clipping.

I am able to monitor output power of the tube amplifiers and can positively affirm they are not driven into clipping. I've owned these speakers since 1988 and have never been used with an amplifier more powerful than the MC2505 (50 wpc) and without ever frying a tweeter in all that time.

Only a few very rare occasions was clipping ever encountered - but this only occurred with briefly experimenting at extraordinarily loud levels that would never be encountered under normal listening conditions. This happened with the MC30s and MC240 which max out in the low 50s before distortion becomes noticeable. Have never gotten clipping with the MC2505 however, whose output closer to 70 wpc but this would represent an uncomfortably high listening level.

Depending on the material, it is not uncommon to average under a watt or so and still be louder than a live classical music concert. I've been to many and most live performances are nowhere near as loud as a modestly-powered stereo system can play without significant distortion, IME.

**Another point in fact is that loudspeaker distortion increases with volume level. That will affect SQ long before the amplifier will.
 
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Even once had the police called to the house and the closest neighbor is a good 75' away.

That's a great tribute to your system and unfortunate news for your ears! As I mentioned, I wear hearing aids and I'm not sure at what decibel level I begin to feel uncomfortable, although I could get a SPL meter and quantify the threshold. My rule of thumb is that when my focus shifts from enjoying the music to becoming aware of sound pressures, it's time to back off.

Dave
 
Hi, Louis. I have Widex hearing "instruments" (as my audiologist refers to them, not "aids." :) I call them hearing aids.) They have what is reputed to be the finest music program of any brand. Obviously, I haven't tried them all, but I can tell you that without these units in my ears (they are behind-the-ear models, not IN the ear), I'm essential deaf above 2500 Hz, which is deadly for classical music (and other musical) enjoyment, to say nothing of social interaction.

I can say without reservation that with these turned to the music program (one of seven different programs), I hear and enjoy music now better than I did when I was a teenager. I'm not exaggerating, because I listen now to the same LPs I had when I was in high school and can hear instrumentation and voice lines that I never discerned before. It's a true miracle for me and I give thanks daily for this technology.

My audiologist has these babies dialed in for me and was able to get that done after only two visits. They're not cheap at ~$6K but my insurance covered some of that and I can write some of it off as unreimbursed medical expense. I've noticed that the music program emphasizes mid-to-high frequencies (obviously), the ones I don't hear when I'm not wearing them. There's also a TV program that brings TV to life ("Thank God!" my wife says, after years of enduring stentorian TV volume on my behalf).

The programs are: Universal (for all-around general use), Music, TV, Comfort (which ratchets down the overall amplification in loud environments), and Relaxation, which I had my audiologist set to zero amplification ("off," IOW) so that I can turn off my aids when my wife is banging pots and pans in the kitchen (and in other very noisy places). There are also two "Zen" programs designed to calm stress and/or treat tinnitus. I also have fairly severe tinnitus (and sometimes stress (mostly stereo related :mad:), but this didn't seem to help me, so I rarely use them.

I have to change batteries about once every seven days, but part of the deal was free batteries for five years (a good deal, since these 312s cost about $20 for a month's worth), after which time, I'll probably get the latest Widex version. Oh, these can also stream music and phone calls from iPhones and Androids, but I have a BlackBerry, so I don't use that feature. Incredible sophistication in a tiny, tiny package.

I also have an optional remote control that looks like a tiny car-key fob. It can raise or lower the volume of any of the programs as well as rotate through them. This is very handy when you need to change a program or volume and you don't want to keep reaching up to the aid behind your ear to press the little button, making people think you have head lice. My audiologist threw in the remote as part of my deal. It's a $200 option.

I preach the gospel of (high quality) hearing aids all the time to people who have hearing loss. Studies show that hearing loss can lead to depression and dementia due to withdrawal from socialization. I can believe that.

Hope this answers your questions, Louis. Feel free to follow up if you need more information or opinions. These things have changed my life.

Dave
 
If the bulbs haven't already been replaced on the MC2000, you'll probably want to get new ones pretty soon (unless you upgrade to LED's). On the other hand, the MC275 VI is still in production and wouldn't require servicing for a very long time; however, I wouldn't buy two of them "just because" unless you actually needed to.
 
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I don't turn on the meter lamps when I use the MC2000 (only for guests, that is). They tend to dominate the landscape and can be distracting. I don't get many guests at all, so they should be good for quite a while.

I'm very happy with just one MC275 right now, but you know how Mac freaks are -- so many amps, so little time!

Dave
 
Having the power for head room is quite different than playing you system at very high level to distortion and watching PG flashing away.


Yes

But mostly all newer mac amps have power guard and lights to indicate it activated.
Power Guard, by design, prevents this no matter how hard the amp is overdriven.

I love amps that are measured in horsepower as much as the next guy. But, it sounds as if the OP doesn't utilize anywhere near the power his amplifier offers at present. As average listening levels tend to be fractions of a watt, recordings with even a 20dB crest factor could be reproduced faithfully with the MC2000.

OP - you wanna' scratch the itch? Buy a pair of MC2301s. Tell you what - your vette vs my Olds from a dig and I'll wager my pair of MC2600s vs your MC2000!
 
Tell you what - your vette vs my Olds from a dig and I'll wager my pair of MC2600s vs your MC2000!

I'm not into digs. I've got way too much torque for my driveshaft and tranny (oops, can I use that word here?). I'm a roll racer. I'll take your bet, but the deal is side by side at 40 mph then GO!!!

Will those 2600s fit inside a Z06's trunk? :idea:

Dave
 
But, it sounds as if the OP doesn't utilize anywhere near the power his amplifier offers at present.
In his first thread that wasn't what he was looking for.

Z06's trunk?

One day on the freeway I blew off a zo6 who felt the need to cut in front of me in traffic. I jumped out of the fast lane from behind him. and took off. We had a few windows in the traffic to either make or brake it. One fast stretch I just smoked him and as I looked over at the slow lane I seen his little brother, putting along with their 1968 Camaro.
Of course I was in my 66 Fairlane GT, 427 stroked to 460ci 11-1 compression, 3 duce 900cfm, 4speed, running 114 octane fuel :rolleyes:
I think he couldn't figure out witch gear to grab, I only had one and 600+ horsepower.

IMG_0681.jpg
 
I'm not into digs. I've got way too much torque for my driveshaft and tranny (oops, can I use that word here?). I'm a roll racer. I'll take your bet, but the deal is side by side at 40 mph then GO!!!

Will those 2600s fit inside a Z06's trunk? :idea:

Dave
Roll racing is for posers and dyno queens (oops - we’re on a roll here...). Real cars leave off the trans brake from a dig ...
 
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