Mcintosh C100, C200 vs C1000P

Discussion in 'McIntosh Audio' started by hillbilly2, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. hillbilly2

    hillbilly2 New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Hello. Did anyone compare preamplifiers C100, C200 and C1000P (Solid State)? I own C100 and C200, I find the C100 more smooth, with more flesh and body, less dry than the C200. Is the phono section better on the C1000, the C100 and C200 have MC silver Ortofon, not the C1000? Thanks for your answers. Pascal from France
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. damacman

    damacman Blown and Injected Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,995
    Location:
    Gilbert, AZ
    I had a C100 before upgrading to the C200 (only for the HT PassThru feature). They sound identical to my ears. It is my understanding that the C200 is simply a C100 with an updated front panel, updated ergonomics, and some additional functionality (PassThru for example). Later C200s did not include the Ortofon SUT as production ceased on it. Mc designed a new phono section for it, I believe which is also in the C500.

    If you search this forum for C100 and C200, you'll find several threads by myself and others detailing these wonderful preamps - one of which describes all of the variants. Here is a start:

    http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/in...&c[title_only]=1&c[node]=54&c[user][0]=143153

    At AK, we have at least a dozen owners between both models.
     
  3. hillbilly2

    hillbilly2 New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Thanks for your answer. My C100 (I think is not a C100A) and C200 have the same Ortofon MC Step Up,they are very close but for me they don't sound identically. The C100 have more flesh, body and slam specialy on phono. I've read the threads, apparently it's hard to see the differencies between A or not A units! A friend have a C100 too, his phono MC input is less good but he have less breathe when there are no signal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  4. hillbilly2

    hillbilly2 New Member

    Messages:
    13
    In fact I've a C100 (not circuit add on the control volume) , not a C100A, more breathe on the speakers but (for me) more groove too than the C100A or C200. I try my MDA1000 on preamplifier mode, deep bass but less feeling than C100 or C200.
     
  5. twiiii

    twiiii Addicted Member

    Messages:
    6,580
    Location:
    west Texas
    I know the gain control structure of a C-200 is much superior to a C-100. The way specs are written today its very hard to compare different model specs from different time periods. . If you have to match up the sensitivities and different gain structures before you can figure out signal to noise ratios in addition to the fact they use A weighting now where in the past there was no weighting used. In the old days 10 mv was the standard for Phono sections, then it changed to 2 MV which is almost a 14db change and then to 5 mv another change. So when a C-37 says 105 db signal to noise on line inputs flat is that. better than a C-1100 saying 107 db A weighted. I would have to compare them on a test bench. Compare the distortion of a MC 7200 and a MC 501 or 252. Which is better. We know the 501 is quieter, does that mean you can hear its distortion better than with a 7200 which is noisier. Which is better at 1 watt, a MC 502 or a 1201. Who would listen to a 1201 at 1 watt. I do at speaker auditions. Lets say a 1201 has 124 db signal to noise A weighted. referenced to 1200 watts. And a MC 502 about 100 db flat. The difference between a 1201 and a 502 is about 14 db in out put. So 124 of the 1201 minus the 14 db difference is 110 db at the same power of 50 watts. So a 1201 should be 10 db quieter at 50 watts and 1 watt than a 502. But the 502 noise is measured flat where the 1201 uses A weighting to roll off the hum of the power supply at low levels. So all else aside, over all power and dollars, which would sound quiter with a Klipsch horn with your ear 1 foot in front of a horn. Would it be the hum free sound of the 502 or the 1201 that was measured using filters? For this hypothetical assume both amps are new right out of the box. We will only be using 10 watts, because that's all the Power we need according to Paul Klipsch. I think it would be closer to 50 which both amps will easily produce.. Lets see with 50watts a Korner Horn will produce about 118 db at. 1 meter or about 126 db at 1 foot. Subtract 100 Db for the 502 and thats 26 db, we can hear that for sure. Subtract 110 db for the 1201 and hope there is no hum and thats 16 db. that would be hard to hear in less in an anechoic chamber. The hum and buzzes are the issue.

    Now if you will look at the white paper comparing a C-100 and a C-200 you can see how the C-200 has better signal to noise and seeing how they were both measure the same way it all depends where the volume control is set as to the failure of the C-100 to match the C-200. Like wise a C-1000 being measured using a A scale filters will naturally measure better. But what happens with out the filters. I assume the 1000 will still win. But our you willing to bet . The winner getting a new C1100 and the looser having to relinquish is favorite old pre-amp. I wouldn't.

    Its like the difference in Phono signal to noise shows a difference of 10 db between my MP-100 and my C-34v for Phono inputs and yet the MP 100 is quieter by only 2 db or so. Just shows how choosing different standards makes life confusing. . The MP 100 is ref to 10 MV with a reading of only 80 with the C-34 saying 90 ref to 2 mv, But if the phono section has 62 db gain, how many millivolts does it take to reach 2.5 volt out put, 2 MV. So thats correct, 10 mv would increase the signal to noise because you would have 12 + db more signal making the signal to noise 102 db, Yet when I had my C-34 repaired it measure 88 db and the MP100 measure 90 when checked out on the service benches after repair of the C-34 and just before shipping the MP 100, both from Audio Classics. I called Mac and they said with in two or 3 Db. Now AC wasn't using A filtering. Its as confusing for me as I know it is for you all.

    So all I can say is if you like the sound of A and I like the sound of B and there is supposed to be a difference , then, if we are both happy don't worry about it and never buy anything just because of published specs. Thats a surprise for me to say don't you think???
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  6. Mike Gibson

    Mike Gibson Modulator Staff Member Super Mod Subscriber

    Messages:
    9,157
    Location:
    Dufur Oregon
    There is always a rub when you compare subjective to the objective worlds. I only look at specifications to eliminate the obvious poorly designed/constructed from consideration. The rest is up to my hearing or what's left of it these days. :) To me it boils down to simply it either sounds good to me or not. Or one device sounds better than another to me. I try and find a balance between what can be meaningfully measured and what I either take on faith or hear myself. YMMV.
     

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  7. damacman

    damacman Blown and Injected Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,995
    Location:
    Gilbert, AZ
    twiiii, obviously suffering from insomnia, makes a few valid points in regard to comparing specs on units from different time periods. The easiest way to wrap your mind around what he's talking about is to think about a 100W power amplifier. The following could both be stated, and both be accurate for the very same amplifier.

    S/N ratio - 100dB at 1W into an 8 Ohm load
    S/N ratio - 120dB

    As there is a 20dB difference between 1W and 100W, that's where the 20dB delta comes from. This is really misleading as you'd never hear a drop of noise from said amplifier when it was belting out AC/DC at max power. Whereas, if you were listening to a dynamic recording at an average output level of a tenth of a watt on a pair of K-horns, the noise floor of the amplifier is a huge factor.

    But, 120dB sure looks better to Joe consumer so that's what is printed ...
     

Share This Page