Mcintosh tuners - Way overrated?

[DC]

We got a new MCM Electronics catalog in the mail today and they are selling a decent 4-element FM Yagi Antenna for only $13.99 plus shipping.

This is the best price we've ever seen for a decent FM Yagi antenna. As always, YMMV.

I ordered one as soon as I saw this post. I don't think I could have built one for $14! And I would have spent more on gas for a billion trips to Home Depot for parts than the shipping fee. No brainer!

I've been thinking about a tripod and directional antenna with rotator for a while, so this will be a cheap and easy way for me to experiment.

I hoped it might be here today, but it looks like Monday ...

 

[DC]

Antenna arrived on Monday and was installed today (see thread here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=609246). I am anxious to get my McIntosh MR-74 back from restoration/calibration service at the PunkerX clinic!

(No rush, Mike! )

 

[Bubo]

If someone has already posted FMTuners page, then it's a repeat.

Haven't read past pg2 but thought I would chime in.

I have owned an MR78 since it was a few months out of the factory, and it is my daily listener, I just went up and listened to it headphones vs speakers a few minutes ago, the station is 35 miles away. The 78 is non-fatiguing, I can and frequently do listen to it all day. My Sony HD and Yamaha TX-1000 blow it away for picking signals out of the air, even with an omni directional antenna. I still have some work to do before I have multiple tuners connected to the C-32 so I won't say one is more lifelike than the other on sound quality.

FMTuners did an extensive shoot out on FM tuners, here is the link to their page with the shoot out. I'm guessing they were able to cherry pick the manufacturers since some of the reviewers appear to be in the repair business and HAM operators (serious radio) as well. Compared to these guys, I'm not sure that I even know what the questions are.......

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/shootouts.html

Beezly asserts that the best FM tuner ever made is the $90 Sony digital which they inexplicably discontinued. Sony XDR-F1HD AM/FM Digital HD Radio Tuner...Punker and others hot rod these to improve the audio section and other issues. Why is SONY struggling...why did they discontinue the best FM tuner ever made?? I own one of these, and it can in fact pick up signals that other tuners can't. My Yamaha TX-1000 is also impressive in the reception area but needs some love so I can't fairly AB the units.



here is their top 25 tuners,

# 24 MAC MR 80
# 77: McIntosh MR 78 - Good bass, slightly electronic sound.

THE SHOOTOUT IS OVER!!
Rankings after Shootout #81:

1 PLUS: -C- Accuphase T-109V - Very natural sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound, smooth extended highs.
1 (TIE): -C- Kenwood L-02T - Most natural sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound.
1 (TIE): -C- Burmester 978 - Natural, open and airy sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound with nice extended highs.
4: -C- Sansui TU-919 - The prince who could be king.
5: -C- Sansui TU-X1 - Very good sound top to bottom. Big soundstage, three-dimensional. Very slight diffuse sound.
6: -C- Audiolab 8000T - Good bass, natural but diffuse sound, sweet extended highs.
7: -C- Philips AH6731 - A very natural, neutral sound. Stereo separation best with a good signal.
8: -C- Revox B760 - Great bass, lifelike midrange and extended highs.

9: -M- Mitsubishi DA-F20 - Quick, punchy bass, open, lively midrange and extended highs.
10: -M- Kenwood KT-5020 - Great bass and midrange and extended, sweet treble. Again, why pay more?
11: -M- Kenwood KT-990D - Smooth, clean sound that always pleased. Why pay more?
12: -M- Meridian Model 104 - Excellent, natural sound, good bass, no to DX games.
13: -M- Meridian Model 504 - Good bass, excellent midrange with smooth, just-right highs.
14: -M- Kenwood L-1000T - Good bass, punchy midrange, sweet extended highs.
15: -M- Sansui TU-X701 - Great-sounding midrange, bass OK, softer highs next to the L-02T.
16: -M- Luxman T-117 - Very good-sounding tuner. No real faults, top to bottom. Not as three-dimensional as the L-02T and gives up some bass richness.
17: -M- Sansui TU-717 - Good bass and midrange with nice "depth" to the soundstage. More forward than the L-02T.
18: -M- B&K TS-108 - Very nice midrange, good bass and nice, extended highs.
19: -M- Technics ST-9038 - Very good bass, nice midrange, smooth treble.
20: -M- Magnum Dynalab MD-108 - Bass OK, very good imaging and realistic midrange, extended but forward highs.
21: -M- Kenwood KT-917 - Good bass, midrange and treble. A very pleasant sound but more one-dimensional when placed next to the L-02T.
22: -M- Sansui TU-S9 - Smooth, natural sound. A budget bargain.
23: -M- Kenwood KT-1100 - Quite tuneful, but flatter soundstage than the L-02T.
24: -M- McIntosh MR 80 - Good bass, lively midrange and pleasant highs. More one-dimensional than the L-02T.
25: -M- Sanyo Plus T35 - Good bass, laidback midrange and extended, pleasant highs.

 

[Bubo]

Truth be known, I've had 4408 Stereo Probes since being a teen. Soundco had a wide assortment of Channel Master antennas in stock. IIRC it was sometime between 1975-77.. bought a 20' galvanized pipe used for the horizontal run on top of a chain-link fence. Set 1/2 of a cement patio block 6" below ground and put the pipe on it. Then clamped it to the house in TWO places under the soffits with custom made aluminum brackets. A rotor was installed on that, with another Channel Master mast up to the Stereo Probe. Can remember going up to Pop's house some 25 years later, taking it down and discarding it. That antenna worked very well too, and turning it (in azimuth) made a HUGE difference!!

Antennas are like amplifiers. You can't have enough gain, side rejection or height above ground. :thmbsp:


By putting a splitter in the transmission line, there'll be a 3dB power split.. a drop in signal level. Best to use low loss transmission line and connect directly to your Rx. Be sure to use a setup where the line can be disconnected easily and regularly from the tuner. Best to disconnect the antenna each day before going to work in the summer in case of storms, and whenever going away.

There are two antenna ports on the MR 80, switchable from inside top cover compartment. The FM Probe was connected to the CABLE port with RG-6 coax, and the Turnstile to the ANTENNA balanced 300-ohm terminals. It was easy to do A-B signal strength comparisons. Mc didn't use a hefty enough push-button switch, because it wore out after 5 or 6 years from switching antennas.

For the Chicago installation, the FM probe was a good bit higher in the air, but the Turnstile had lower loss, and shorter transmission line. Plus it was more directly over the listening room. It would look funny having a turnstile 32 feet above ground, way above the roof.


A smaller Yagi antenna might be good for your purpose. Certainly it will improve tuner performance and listening enjoyment. Plus you get to play with the rotor control. Be sure to read about grounding if the antenna mast is way up there, or stick it in the ground beside your house like described above.

IMO.. anyone with an MR78 or MR80 would do well with an outdoor Yagi antenna on a rotor.. and a bigger, high gain model for FM DXing.


Sometimes I put `don't make me slap you´ in these tuner threads. :lmao: Lol


-Gregory

Gregory, you sound like you design antennas for a living......

 

[DC]

If someone has already posted FMTuners page, then it's a repeat.

Haven't read past pg2 but thought I would chime in.

Why offer commentary on a thread that you have not read?

 

[jlovda]

If someone has already posted FMTuners page, then it's a repeat.

Haven't read past pg2 but thought I would chime in.

I have owned an MR78 since it was a few months out of the factory, and it is my daily listener, I just went up and listened to it headphones vs speakers a few minutes ago, the station is 35 miles away. The 78 is non-fatiguing, I can and frequently do listen to it all day. My Sony HD and Yamaha TX-1000 blow it away for picking signals out of the air, even with an omni directional antenna. I still have some work to do before I have multiple tuners connected to the C-32 so I won't say one is more lifelike than the other on sound quality.

FMTuners did an extensive shoot out on FM tuners, here is the link to their page with the shoot out. I'm guessing they were able to cherry pick the manufacturers since some of the reviewers appear to be in the repair business and HAM operators (serious radio) as well. Compared to these guys, I'm not sure that I even know what the questions are.......

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/shootouts.html

Beezly asserts that the best FM tuner ever made is the $90 Sony digital which they inexplicably discontinued. Sony XDR-F1HD AM/FM Digital HD Radio Tuner...Punker and others hot rod these to improve the audio section and other issues. Why is SONY struggling...why did they discontinue the best FM tuner ever made?? I own one of these, and it can in fact pick up signals that other tuners can't. My Yamaha TX-1000 is also impressive in the reception area but needs some love so I can't fairly AB the units.



here is their top 25 tuners,

# 24 MAC MR 80
# 77: McIntosh MR 78 - Good bass, slightly electronic sound.

THE SHOOTOUT IS OVER!!
Rankings after Shootout #81:

1 PLUS: -C- Accuphase T-109V - Very natural sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound, smooth extended highs.
1 (TIE): -C- Kenwood L-02T - Most natural sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound.
1 (TIE): -C- Burmester 978 - Natural, open and airy sound, good bass. Pinpoint imaging. Lifelike, three-dimensional sound with nice extended highs.
4: -C- Sansui TU-919 - The prince who could be king.
5: -C- Sansui TU-X1 - Very good sound top to bottom. Big soundstage, three-dimensional. Very slight diffuse sound.
6: -C- Audiolab 8000T - Good bass, natural but diffuse sound, sweet extended highs.
7: -C- Philips AH6731 - A very natural, neutral sound. Stereo separation best with a good signal.
8: -C- Revox B760 - Great bass, lifelike midrange and extended highs.

9: -M- Mitsubishi DA-F20 - Quick, punchy bass, open, lively midrange and extended highs.
10: -M- Kenwood KT-5020 - Great bass and midrange and extended, sweet treble. Again, why pay more?
11: -M- Kenwood KT-990D - Smooth, clean sound that always pleased. Why pay more?
12: -M- Meridian Model 104 - Excellent, natural sound, good bass, no to DX games.
13: -M- Meridian Model 504 - Good bass, excellent midrange with smooth, just-right highs.
14: -M- Kenwood L-1000T - Good bass, punchy midrange, sweet extended highs.
15: -M- Sansui TU-X701 - Great-sounding midrange, bass OK, softer highs next to the L-02T.
16: -M- Luxman T-117 - Very good-sounding tuner. No real faults, top to bottom. Not as three-dimensional as the L-02T and gives up some bass richness.
17: -M- Sansui TU-717 - Good bass and midrange with nice "depth" to the soundstage. More forward than the L-02T.
18: -M- B&K TS-108 - Very nice midrange, good bass and nice, extended highs.
19: -M- Technics ST-9038 - Very good bass, nice midrange, smooth treble.
20: -M- Magnum Dynalab MD-108 - Bass OK, very good imaging and realistic midrange, extended but forward highs.
21: -M- Kenwood KT-917 - Good bass, midrange and treble. A very pleasant sound but more one-dimensional when placed next to the L-02T.
22: -M- Sansui TU-S9 - Smooth, natural sound. A budget bargain.
23: -M- Kenwood KT-1100 - Quite tuneful, but flatter soundstage than the L-02T.
24: -M- McIntosh MR 80 - Good bass, lively midrange and pleasant highs. More one-dimensional than the L-02T.
25: -M- Sanyo Plus T35 - Good bass, laidback midrange and extended, pleasant highs.

Thanks for the list. Your descriptions convince me that I could buy any of these tuners up to and passing #77 and be very happy. Considering how high the numbers go, I can imagine Yorx or SoundDesign boomboxes came in as #75 and 76. The MR77 must be equal or worse than #78. Same with the MR74. No tube units including the 10b or MR71. What equipment does the reviewer own?

This list does not describe the reception conditions. Distance, ERP of transmitter, input power at the antenna terminals, ground topology, antenna type and height, sidebands, adjacent and alternate channel situation, etc. You mention #7, the Philips unit, sounds best with "a good signal." Did every unit get a "good signal?"

 

[Bubo]

I am not sure I get the argument that because the neighbors do not have outside antennas I would not want one?
I looked around my neighborhood and more than half the houses have antennas with a large amount having two with one being dish. I live in a high tech area so I guess people just want to take advantage of HD broadcast video and FM/AM.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Ron,

Before I cut the cable a few years ago, my reading indicated that 8 million had preceded me.

The over the air HD video and sound are as good or better than satellite IMHO.

For all the reasons Gregory states directional is better than omni, but I didn't want to deal with a rotator and there are so many stations around Chicago.

Driving around my subdivision, there are more antennas than there use to be. These are mine....

 

[Bubo]

We got a new MCM Electronics catalog in the mail today and they are selling a decent 4-element FM Yagi Antenna for only $13.99 plus shipping.


This is the best price we've ever seen for a decent FM Yagi antenna. As always, YMMV.

Buy two and tie them together, +3db??

 

[Bubo]

...

 

[Bubo]

Thanks for the list. Your descriptions convince me that I could buy any of these tuners up to and passing #77 and be very happy. Considering how high the numbers go, I can imagine Yorx or SoundDesign boomboxes came in as #75 and 76. The MR77 must be equal or worse than #78. Same with the MR74. No tube units including the 10b or MR71. What equipment does the reviewer own?

This list does not describe the reception conditions. Distance, ERP of transmitter, input power at the antenna terminals, ground topology, antenna type and height, sidebands, adjacent and alternate channel situation, etc. You mention #7, the Philips unit, sounds best with "a good signal." Did every unit get a "good signal?"

John,

link to the shootout page, they may list the test conditions, they put a lot of time into it, if the test bed is not described....ask one of the testers, pretty good bunch of guys. The comments are from FMTuners, not me....

On their "good signal" comment, they were probably doing some: DXing, rotating away from the transmitter, and trying to pick up a weak signal behind a stronger transmitter, or trying to grab a weak high school or college station.

Agree, there are a lot of shades of good, I have a Yamaha T 1020 that I paid $20 for that rocks, it grabs and holds signals like a pit bull. Sound Quality is excellent, better than xxx who knows, when I opened the unit up it had been completely rebuilt, and probably aligned. If it were my only turner, I would be a happy man. I suffer from abundance.

 

[jlovda]

Ron,

Before I cut the cable a few years ago, my reading indicated that 8 million had preceded me.

The over the air HD video and sound are as good or better than satellite IMHO.

For all the reasons Gregory states directional is better than omni, but I didn't want to deal with a rotator and there are so many stations around Chicago.

Driving around my subdivision, there are more antennas than there use to be. These are mine....

I can only state the facts. There are at least one hundred houses in our development (20 years old). There is NOT A SINGLE roof antenna in the area. Only satellite dishes either on the south side of the house or mounted on a post in the back yard. No ham towers either. Nothing affixed to roof shingles. My neighbor "cut the cable" and put a large antenna in his garage attic. I would assume a lot of other neighbors have too. This is probably a big psychological experiment but I don't want to be the standout.

Our immediate area used to be farmland and is in the middle of a large bowl about a mile in diameter and roughly 75-100 ft below the high points around us. Several people here mentioned they put up a roof antenna that were about 35 feet high with direct line of sight to the transmitter. I would need a pretty high tower.

 

[Bubo]

Why offer commentary on a thread that you have not read?

Why offer a comment like yours??

 

[KiM3Ce]

The good old days?

I wonder how many other brands had the muscle to force their dealers to antie up a considerable amount of cash to have the test gear to make sure all tuners sold by that dealer we're right.

In my home town of Evanston, IL is a store named Audio Consultants. Back when Audio-Technica introduced their Signet cartridge line, they ran full-page ads in the stereo magazines showing the owner with the high-dollar Wild-Heerbrug microscope he had to buy in order to qualify. I wonder where all those went?

They were and are a McIntosh dealer and still have a service department. They've stayed in business since 1967. No affiliation. Sorry if off topic...

 

[jlovda]

They were and are a McIntosh dealer and still have a service department. They've stayed in business since 1967..

I used to work at Shure and visited them often. My recollection is that they only service equipment they sell (even Mcintosh). Is Simon still there?

 

[Bubo]

I can only state the facts. There are at least one hundred houses in our development (20 years old). There is NOT A SINGLE roof antenna in the area. Only satellite dishes either on the south side of the house or mounted on a post in the back yard. No ham towers either. Nothing affixed to roof shingles. My neighbor "cut the cable" and put a large antenna in his garage attic. I would assume a lot of other neighbors have too. This is probably a big psychological experiment but I don't want to be the standout.

Our immediate area used to be farmland and is in the middle of a large bowl about a mile in diameter and roughly 75-100 ft below the high points around us. Several people here mentioned they put up a roof antenna that were about 35 feet high with direct line of sight to the transmitter. I would need a pretty high tower.

Check out these two sites for finding FM stations, they helped me a lot in many decisions. Don't forget, the transmitters can be quite tall, so you just have to see over the tallest point in between to have line of sight.

http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...tpage&Itemid=1

http://www.radio-locator.com

I understand the Leper concerns, every time I see my antennas I think they "look cool", I didn't ask the neighbors what they thought at the time, most of them lost their McMansions to the Bank during the crash..... so I never had the chance to ask them......Not a single one of the existing neighbors has said a single word about the antennas.

Most of the antennas that others put up in my subdivision we're on short masts, probably too short for the job.....in for a penny in for a pound.... I went as tall as was practical without guy wires for the masts which probably would have exceeded good taste.

There is a fellow three blocks west of me that has a 35ft mast bolted to the side of the house, looks fine to me, makes grounding the mast easier too.

 

[Sam Cogley]

Ron,

Before I cut the cable a few years ago, my reading indicated that 8 million had preceded me.

The over the air HD video and sound are as good or better than satellite IMHO.

For all the reasons Gregory states directional is better than omni, but I didn't want to deal with a rotator and there are so many stations around Chicago.

Driving around my subdivision, there are more antennas than there use to be. These are mine....

How do you like the TV antenna? Do you have it on a rotator? I have the same one waiting for me to figure out where I'm going to install it.

 

[Vinyl Rules!]

[SNIP]
This list does not describe the reception conditions. Distance, ERP of transmitter, input power at the antenna terminals, ground topology, antenna type and height, sidebands, adjacent and alternate channel situation, etc. You mention #7, the Philips unit, sounds best with "a good signal." Did every unit get a "good signal?"

jlovda,

Did ya' read the limitations noted on the shootout page at http://fmtunerinfo.com/shootouts.html? :nono:

To quote TIC, All shootout tuners are in good operating condition but are not measured and may not be in perfect alignment. Remember, the shootouts are for fun and involve only one "as found" sample of each tuner. In order to semi-conclusively rank one tuner above another, you'd need to test at least three fully aligned and measured samples of every tuner.

All of us at TIC understand the limitations of the Shootouts format, but it seems as though people don't always read or understand the above disclaimer. As David Letterman used to say (or maybe still does say?) about Stupid Pet Tricks, "This is not a competition - this is only an exhibition - so please, no wagering." We might add, "And please, no paying a ridiculous amount of money for a tuner on eBay based on one guy's opinion of one sample"!

I'm one of the moderators in the FM Tuner Group. All of the tuners were tested in the same system under identical reception conditions. The individual who wrote these reports was doing it for fun, not fame nor fortune.

In the FM Tuner Group, when people critiqued this individual's work and/or the format of the shootouts, our typical response as a Moderator was, OK, then we challenge to you to write up your own FM tuner reviews and submit them. If they are reasonably well-written and spell & grammar checked, we will print them.

We had less than a handful take us up on this offer - Our current membership is 6,124 registered members.

 

[KiM3Ce]

I used to work at Shure and visited them often. My recollection is that they only service equipment they sell (even Mcintosh). Is Simon still there?

Right on both counts. See http://www.audioconsultants.com/AboutUs.aspx.

If you bought all those McIntosh units there, they should remember you too!

 

[Bubo]

How do you like the TV antenna? Do you have it on a rotator? I have the same one waiting for me to figure out where I'm going to install it.

Sam,

The Antennas Direct 4 ring antenna has approx a 160 angle of reception, I would put 2 back to back before I would do a rotator. If chimney mount, one on each side of the chimney would work well.

In my case, is CBS to the west of me different than CBS in Chicago? I aimed it squarely at Chicago, but it gets everything east of me. The 4 stations to the west I don't really care about.

Worth every Penny!

 

[BillyBatts]

I admit I'm addicted to U-Verse (Subscription TV and high speed Internet delivered over a Twisted Pair Phone Line). In Hawaii we have Time Warner via Oceanic Cable (U-Verse is not available in Hawaii yet). I don't want to watch two or three Honolulu stations, but if I had to cut it, I suppose I would. But not without reservations.

In two of my homes I have attic Discone antennas for FM reception. I also have a Windom strung up in trees in one home for Ham Radio, and a 10 meter - 40 meter Vertical on a 10' Mast in the back Yard disguised among the trees.

I still need my FM reception. I guess it's a pursuit that has not faded since college. I went to Undergrad school in a remote area that was 75 miles away from decent FM. Us electronics heads spent 4 years trying everything we could to pull in FM. I finally subscribed to Cable TV in my apartment and paid 5 bux a month for an FM Tap. That did the trick!