Measuring audio system and miniDSP's

[neevo]

I'm chasing audio nirvana... who isn't to some degree. Couple this with a wife who is less than enthusiastic about me devoting one of our rooms in to an audio room means that I need to factor in common sense to what I do. However this doesn't mean I can't optimise and maybe even try some stuff so I can enjoy the best of both worlds.

My front room is a lounge room 95% of the time. Setup as a comfy space with my stereo (Turntable/Phono Preamp & SONOS Connect as the 2 sources in to a 1970's Kenwood KA-8100 and out to LS50's and stereo subs) as some eye candy and also for everyday listening. The setup is less than ideal for critical listening as I cannot get a front on position to the mains and also getting the ideal subwoofer placement has been a real challenge, however for a relaxing sit down and listening to music it still sounds very good.

I've spent ages trying to perfect the setup and its pretty good for the everyday position, however I've recently brought in the Kenwood amp and I feel its causing some holes in the response. In the LS50 thread @canuckaudiog mentioned doing some setup work and the comment around a microphone popped up to do some proper measurements.

This thread is designed to document my journey with testing my setup. Doing some reading (and now also having an amp that features preamp/power amp jumpers) I'm also toying with the idea of potentially introducing a miniDSP in to the equation with am ambition to have a couple of EQ and timing setups for both the everyday listening position and also a second setup that would service critical listening... best of both worlds maybe?

Here are the current layouts (room is 4.8m high and 3.5m wide) where listening is done from Chair 3.

Setup 1 (everyday listening):



Pro's:
1. WAF and still useable as a sitting room
2. Most even bass by my ears (microphone will tell, although I do suspect a mid bass dip)

Cons:
1. No imaging due to seating position and crap location for mains behind big comfy chairs

Setup 2 (when everyone's out the house for a little while):



Pro's:
1. Imaging for mains

Cons:
1. Annoying to have to move furniture about but at least its only 1 chair
2. Getting exact locations for mains each time is a gamble
3. Bass response seems like it has a bit of a hole under 80hz

Step 1 is going to be testing the current layout of speakers and subs and see what's happening and if my assumptions about my setup are correct. Will be interesting to see what the microphone and software picks up.

I am hoping I can optimise the layouts above vs trying any others. The middle gap in the bottom wall is a see through fireplace, so obviously not a great position for seating all the time (you can also see the gaps either side here too):

 

[N8Nagel]

could you move the subs in Option 2 both to the opposite corners, and then is there enough room to put the speakers in the corners by Chair 3? Imaging might not be great but would be better in the other two chairs but would be acceptable, and you could always pull one to the middle for critical listening. Just a thought. Don't know how it would actually work.

 

[neevo]

could you move the subs in Option 2 both to the opposite corners, and then is there enough room to put the speakers in the corners by Chair 3? Imaging might not be great but would be better in the other two chairs but would be acceptable, and you could always pull one to the middle for critical listening. Just a thought. Don't know how it would actually work.

Welcome to my world! I've toyed around with a million setups and its really hard getting one that serves music and keeps the room functional. Still open to ideas though.

There is also no power up the fireplace end which restricts things a little too.

It will be interesting to see how the response is currently, i'll do a few tests of subs on/off etc to see how it all comes together. I'm keen as mustard to see how optimised it is in both setups today as I feel the first option is actually pretty good sounding from the listening position.

Not sure I mentioned it but I purchased a UMIK-1 from the same mob that makes the miniDSP. I'm also really keen to see if the miniDSP is a viable option in the future too as I suspect (if I understand it all correctly) that I could load custom EQ curves to address any holes in the setup and potentially have a different curve for the critical listening setup too.

 

[N8Nagel]

Somehow I didn't see the pics only the diagrams. They help visualize a lot.

This sounds stupid but when SWMBO moved, I sketched her house in AutoCAD and also made CAD blocks for all her furniture, speakers, gear stands, etc. Kind of a high tech version of something you can do - get yourself an architect's scale and an X-Acto knife and make you little paper scale models of all the stuff in that room, draw the room on paper, and play around with them on the kitchen table for a while. For one room, I'd probably do it 1/4" = 1'

Surprisingly, when the stuff showed up, nothing ended up where I planned, but she's happy, so...

 

[teal'c]

 

[neevo]

@N8Nagel I put the photo's in after, probably why you missed them. I did the same thing with furniture when we moved in to this house. Drew it in Sketchup. Same result... when the furniture arrived it looked odd and we moved it all around. No replacement for doing it in real life

 

[Old Guy8]

Have you tried your subs behind chair 1 and chair 2? Thats near each LS50. Maybe you did and did not like it. How about under each LS50 with stands? Would raise speakers above ear level, but above chairs. Likely less bass, out of corners though. But closer to TT, for possible feedback issues.
I often use reclined sling chairs with narrow headrest, that fold up. Can come out to listening position. Then go back to folded, leaning in a corner.

 

[FileFixer]

What I see is that all subs stay in the corners without any space from side except on setup 2 but only one sub have space. 2nd is behind chair. You can try to move sub 1 on same wall where is placed sub 2 but in oposite corner.

 

[neevo]

Have you tried your subs behind chair 1 and chair 2? Thats near each LS50. Maybe you did and did not like it. How about under each LS50 with stands? Would raise speakers above ear level, but above chairs. Likely less bass, out of corners though. But closer to TT, for possible feedback issues.
I often use reclined sling chairs with narrow headrest, that fold up. Can come out to listening position. Then go back to folded, leaning in a corner.

Sure have. I've tried In the top corners, both in centre of top wall under mains, sub 1 in same position and sub 2 halfway down right wall... all had issues. The best setup by far (for both listening positions too actually) has been the diagonal setup as its currently in. This is comparable to the top corners that I originally had for the everyday use but I got rubbish bass in the critical listening position with top corner setup.

Of course all of this is based on my ears. Once I get the testing rig, I'll put some charts together to see how much of a difference it actually makes in the real world.

I suspect my biggest challenge will be due to bass nodes and bass traps/room treatments might be the best ultimate solution which I reckon would go down like a lead balloon with the other half!

 

[Old Guy8]

Some ladies like designer pillows everywhere. Mine does. They could be tried stacking a couple high in corners behind chairs, as bass traps.

 

[for_p1]

I'm chasing audio nirvana... who isn't to some degree. Couple this with a wife who is less than enthusiastic about me devoting one of our rooms in to an audio room means that I need to factor in common sense to what I do. However this doesn't mean I can't optimise and maybe even try some stuff so I can enjoy the best of both worlds.

My front room is a lounge room 95% of the time. Setup as a comfy space with my stereo (Turntable/Phono Preamp & SONOS Connect as the 2 sources in to a 1970's Kenwood KA-8100 and out to LS50's and stereo subs) as some eye candy and also for everyday listening. The setup is less than ideal for critical listening as I cannot get a front on position to the mains and also getting the ideal subwoofer placement has been a real challenge, however for a relaxing sit down and listening to music it still sounds very good.

I've spent ages trying to perfect the setup and its pretty good for the everyday position, however I've recently brought in the Kenwood amp and I feel its causing some holes in the response. In the LS50 thread @canuckaudiog mentioned doing some setup work and the comment around a microphone popped up to do some proper measurements.

This thread is designed to document my journey with testing my setup. Doing some reading (and now also having an amp that features preamp/power amp jumpers) I'm also toying with the idea of potentially introducing a miniDSP in to the equation with am ambition to have a couple of EQ and timing setups for both the everyday listening position and also a second setup that would service critical listening... best of both worlds maybe?

Here are the current layouts (room is 4.8m high and 3.5m wide) where listening is done from Chair 3.

Setup 1 (everyday listening):

View attachment 1108266

Pro's:
1. WAF and still useable as a sitting room
2. Most even bass by my ears (microphone will tell, although I do suspect a mid bass dip)

Cons:
1. No imaging due to seating position and crap location for mains behind big comfy chairs

Setup 2 (when everyone's out the house for a little while):

View attachment 1108267

Pro's:
1. Imaging for mains

Cons:
1. Annoying to have to move furniture about but at least its only 1 chair
2. Getting exact locations for mains each time is a gamble
3. Bass response seems like it has a bit of a hole under 80hz

Step 1 is going to be testing the current layout of speakers and subs and see what's happening and if my assumptions about my setup are correct. Will be interesting to see what the microphone and software picks up.

I am hoping I can optimise the layouts above vs trying any others. The middle gap in the bottom wall is a see through fireplace, so obviously not a great position for seating all the time (you can also see the gaps either side here too):

View attachment 1108278

View attachment 1108280

I would move speakers to the right wall - one with picture on the wall. Then arrange chairs around table so that one is a best listening position. Sub is better suited in one of corners, there it is most efficient.

When use do measurements, use 6-10 points in two dimensional array within 3 feet from that one chair, then average measurements before running filters design. Let up to 3dB variation uncorrected.

 

[neevo]

When use do measurements, use 6-10 points in two dimensional array within 3 feet from that one chair, then average measurements before running filters design. Let up to 3dB variation uncorrected.

Had to read that a couple of times. Assume you mean a grid around the chain in the horizontal plane so you get a more average view on the listening position?

Like an array of 9 testing points?

 

[Lavane]

You said no power to fireplace area. No way to place any of those rubber type wiring covers for flooring to hide the cabling and not be really seen? They are pretty heavy and stay put on carpeting without any tape.

 

[neevo]

You said no power to fireplace area. No way to place any of those rubber type wiring covers for flooring to hide the cabling and not be really seen? They are pretty heavy and stay put on carpeting without any tape.

What are they? I’m running a power and sub audio cable along 1 wall at the moment. Is there a neat solution to hide cables? I thought about lifting the carpet but no idea how I’d put it back again.

 

[Lavane]

Long, about three or more inches wide. You see them used a lot in buildings, events ect. to run wiring on floors so people don't trip over the wires or power cables. Kind of look like speed bumps but longer. Just cut to length. With space under for wiring.

 

[Lavane]

I thought about finding some to run speaker wires to my fire place along the wall without having to pull up carpeting.

 

[Lavane]

A couple types here. Just scroll down.
https://www.homedepot.com/s/Cable and wiring sheilds for floors?searchtype=text&NCNI-5

 

[neevo]

What’s the difference between the miniDSP 2x4 and the miniDSP 2x4 HD?

Edit: found it as they have a comparison chart at the bottom

Upgraded DAC and remote is worth it alone in my book.

 

[neevo]

A couple types here. Just scroll down.
https://www.homedepot.com/s/Cable and wiring sheilds for floors?searchtype=text&NCNI-5

Yeah ok. Would still like it hidden but if I could get the carpet back down that might work under the carpet so there isn’t a bump from the cable.

 

[Powertech]

As AK readers will now know, my system is fully active, but a few years ago I tried the 2-way mains + both single and stereo subs setup. I never found a way to integrate the subs properly (and I really did try hard). From discussions on various audio forums over the years, it would appear that it's actually very difficult to get sub integration right. The main area of trouble seems to be around the 60 - 100Hz region - precisely where you say you are having trouble.
This might be worth a try. Tune your sub filter to about 100Hz rolloff and then turn the bass down on your main amp. Bass control shelving filters are usually set at about 100Hz. Oh, and try it with the subs either side of the mains. What you are basically doing is turning your system into a 3-way setup at a crossover frequency where the bass is still fairly non-directional. It will take a lot of fiddling to get the relative levels right, but it might be worth a try.
Also, as a possible bonus, what I have found is that with small mid/bass drivers, when they don't have to play the bass frequencies the midrange clarity improves considerably. If you get any joy with this, it may then be worth switching off the internal sub filters and going the active filter route. This would feed the mid+treble to your stereo mains and the bass to the subs, but in a much more controlled manner.